Dean Palmer (March 27, 1982)

              Voices From the Past
Dean Palmer
By Dean Palmer
March 27, 1982
Tape # 31
Oral Interviews conducted by Harold Forbush
Transcribed by Brittney Law
Edited by Natalie Shaw May 2008
Brigham Young University- Idaho 2
Dean Palmer Interview The interview being conducted today is the removal of the railroad tracks, ties, etc. of the railroad which existed between Ashton, Idaho on the south, and Yellowstone, Montana on the north. The one being interviewed this 27th day of March, 1982 is Mr. Dean Palmer of Rexburg. Harold Forbush: Dean, I appreciate welcoming you here this Saturday morning for this interview. Would you kindly state your full name and the date and place where you were born? Dean Palmer: My full name is Dean Leroy Palmer and I was born here in Rexburg, September 3, 1943. HF: What is your present and current address? DP: Route 2, Box 326, Rexburg zip code. HF: Referring to the Palmer name, I‟ m sure there are several families here in the upper Snake River Valley with that surname. Are you all related? DP: No, none of us are related. There are three different Palmer families here and we‟ ve traced our genealogy back quite some distance and none of us have become related yet. My grandfather originally came out of Utah, and I think Max Palmer‟ s family came out of Burley, Rupert area. I‟ m not sure where his grandfather came from. I‟ m not sure on Gene Palmer‟ s family line— where they‟ re from. HF: Ok now, these other two persons, Max and Gene you comment on are contemporaries, or about your age? DP: No. I would guess Max about forty- five to fifty years, old and Gene must be about sixty- five. HF: Oh, ok. Now, is your father here? DP: Yes, my dad lives out in Egin. I was born and raised in the Egin Bench area and his name is Roy Palmer. There was quite a large family and his dad was William Palmer, I believe everybody called him Willy. ( The) only thing I ever knew him by was Grandpa but I think everybody called him either Willy or Bill Palmer. HF: Was he the first to come into the upper Snake River Valley? DP: The first Palmer, yes. HF: First Palmer to come in. About what time did they get here? 3
DP: I‟ m guessing but… I think they came in… I would say around 1910 to 1920 somewhere in there. HF: So they weren‟ t one of the original pioneers? DP: No. HF: The family to which you belong, pretty well settled in the Egin Bench? DP: Yes, yes. Matter of fact, all four brothers that there were in the family, all live within a mile of one another. So they‟ ve stayed there. There are eight living brothers and sisters and the furthest one that lives away lives here in Rexburg. We‟ re all native and have been here a long time. HF: These would be uncles to you? DP: Yes, uncles and aunts. HF: Alright, of course. Palmer probably is an English name? DP: Yes, that‟ s correct. HF: And so your ancestors came out of the British Isles? DP: Yes, English and Danish is my ancestry. And my wife is also English and Danish HF: Turning to the subject of our interview, Mr. Palmer, I‟ ve got a number of questions. Maybe we ought to stick fairly close to each question and yet, I invite you to elaborate, so that the listener may well understand the subject of our interview when it‟ s all done. This is a resource to history and it‟ s intended as a resource whereby a person can go and listen to the tape, and from that, take notes and it will be a resource to which reference can be made. The railroad which you removed this last year, 1981, was laid down and established by whom? What do you know about that railroad that was installed, and when and where? DP: Well, I brought the profile with me that the Union Pacific Railroad furnished us to bid on the project. The railroad was actually constructed in 1905 to 1909 and at that time it was called the Yellowstone Park Railroad Company. This is the Idaho division; they called it the Yellowstone Branch and it was constructed during this period of time. I‟ ve run across quite a few people who are in the area that either their dads or their granddads worked on that particular line. HF: How long a line was it? 4
DP: With the sidings and the turnaround at West Yellowstone, there was approximately sixty miles between Ashton and West Yellowstone. HF: Do you know anything about the construction, who built it? The UP line I guess? DP: Yes, it was a Union Pacific. HF: Union Pacific only. Was it a Yellowstone Branch? DP: Right, right. Yes, we don‟ t know the actual people… well we know of some of the people that worked on the lines, I don‟ t know their names particularly. As they built it, I can see where they had a lot of problems in some areas due to the rocks or sand or marshy areas. Now did you want me to talk about…? HF: Just go into the terrain a little bit. DP: Ok. The terrain; we started out at Ashton and we went right through the farms, there were farms that we traveled through and we crossed a lot of canals and ditches and so forth. HF: More particularly, let‟ s maybe focus on what they had to go through in building this branch line. DP: Well I would say that at that time, it was probably sage brush. And then they went up— after they got through the sage brush, the flat area— they went up by the Warm River area. It looks like they had spent a lot of time blasting rocks out to level a slot, a sight out, and they traveled for approximately six miles along the river to go up to where the Warm River campground is today. It‟ s approximately six miles along that river that we followed, and it‟ s rocky all the way. HF: Now did they have to cross the Snake? DP: No, not Warm River right there. We haven‟ t crossed a river yet. The only thing that we‟ ve crossed so far is a few canals and ditches that have been put in later. HF: And those wouldn‟ t have been there at the time that this railroad was laid out? DP: No, no, I‟ m sure it wasn‟ t. HF: But they did have to bridge the Warm River?
DP: Yes. Now once they got into the Warm River campground, they had to cross Robison Creek, ( and) then they had to cross Warm River which was just a very short ways from one another. Now, those two particular bridges were the only two bridges that we had to disband, and the reason that they had to be taken out was because nobody would be responsible for those bridges. The Union Pacific Railroad, it was an older line. 5
They wanted to abandon it so that they would not have to continue to maintain it and be responsible for it. The Forest Service owns the property from the Warm River on up to West Yellowstone. HF: Does the old railroad follow pretty much a straight line, straight north? DP: No, ( as a) matter of fact, it curves a tremendous amount. As we work our way from the Warm River campground, we follow the hillside, working our way up on elevation. Of course, as you know, there was a tunnel up by this side of Bear Gulch, and that tunnel is 557 feet long, and it‟ s a very big tunnel. Everybody was quite concerned how we would go through there, but I can guarantee you that the size of the trains are— it was very easy for us to go through with our trucks and our CAT that we used to take up the ties. The only place that we‟ ve had flat anywhere along the line, was really up by the big springs in Island Park‟ s sighting areas. The rest of it curved back and forth, to the right and to the left, and some places we went up and down. HF: In other words, they had to make the tunnel; they couldn‟ t go over it or around it… DP: That‟ s right. HF: So they just had to literally go through it? DP: They had to go through a particular mountainside there, and they surely did. \ It‟ s quite a miraculous thing, it‟ s quite tall. HF: Now are there a lot of earth and rock and formations above the tunnel on the upper side? DP: Yes, yes there certainly is, tremendously. I‟ d guess it‟ s around 300 feet high. So, I‟ m sure they spent a lot of time working on that tunnel. And just before the tunnel, they had to fill in an area that I‟ m guessing they had to fill it in 200 feet deep to fill it in, because of the way the mountainside was. A train can only go up a certain grade, and I‟ m not quite sure the percentage of the incline, but I know they can only take a certain incline or the train can‟ t pull it. And that‟ s why they either had to fill in, or cut down to make the track half way, on a gradual grade. HF: Can you visualize that they experienced any problems going over… what is that pass into Montana? The Continental? DP: It‟ s called Reas Pass. HF: Reas Pass on the Continentals? Is that the same as the Continentals? DP: No. Reas Pass is the railroad pass that goes into West Yellowstone and on top of the pass, it is the Continental Divide. 6
HF: How do you spell Reas? DP: It‟ s R- E- A- S. HF: R- E- A- S. What about that pass? Is it quite a high pass? What can you tell me about it? DP: Yes, the elevation there is 6,935 feet above sea level. On that particular mountain, we found a lot of springs, just springing right up out of the side of the mountain and it made the railroad bed very soft. I always thought that a railroad bed would be very hard where the trains travel over it all the time, but as we took the rails and ties off and we had to drive our trucks and our equipment down it, we found very many soft spots in the track bed. It made it very difficult ( in) some places to get our ties out. We‟ d have to fill in those soft spots with either gravel or rocks, and ( in) some cases we had to bury ties in the ground to make it substantial to support the weight of our trucks. HF: And they must have had to do something too, when it was built? DP: I‟ m sure they did. At that time they were using horses and they had to pack it down too and I‟ m sure as they brought it up with horses, that the horses helped pack the dirt down somewhat. They had to put culverts under some of their roadbeds to let the spring water drain off so it wouldn‟ t soak up the roadbed. HF: So as we reconstruct the railroad, can you sort of suggest and maybe by reiterating the trouble spots— course one would have to be the fill just before they went through the mountain. DP: The tunnel? HF: The tunnel. That would be a trouble spot wouldn‟ t it? DP: Yes, definitely the tunnel would‟ ve been one. I would say that probably sixty percent of the track line they had many difficulties with because of the terrain; mainly because of water, rivers, and marshy areas. There was an area just between Big Springs and Island Park‟ s sighting that was very soft and it just went through a big flat area, and it was very spongy. It‟ s just a big, kind of like a big slew area and they must have hauled the dirt in there and went across the flat area. But I can imagine all kinds of troubles as they… HF: And Reas Pass could‟ ve also been a trouble spot? DP: Oh, no question about that. They had to go through and survey first, and then they had to cut the trees out, and then they had to cut and fill, and then they were only able to work there for a short time. Down at the office, down in Idaho Falls, they‟ ve got a picture of them coming through at the 15th of April, and the snow was about three feet above the train still on that track line. They were trying to clear the track line so they could go up to West Yellowstone, and at the 15th of April, they‟ ve still got snow they estimated at eighteen feet deep. 7
HF: Do you remember what year that was? DP: 1972. I saw it on the picture down there in Idaho Falls at the Union Pacific office in Idaho Falls. HF: That‟ s interesting isn‟ t it? From your experience in removing, what width of right- of- way had they acquired? DP: Most places it was 100 feet. They go from the center of the track and they go, well, there were some places it varied. But in most places it was 100 feet from the center of the track was their right- of- way through those mountains. HF: From the center of the track. So in other words you‟ re saying that it was 100 feet on each side of the center of the track? DP: Yes. HF: So it would be 200 feet? DP: Right. HF: 200 foot right- of- way. DP: Um- hmm. And there were some places it got down a lot smaller— that was the maximum. The minimum was 20 feet each side of the center of the track which would be 40 feet. HF: That‟ s interesting. DP: But it depended on the area. HF: Ok, now, what gave rise— I think you alluded to this— what gave rise to the reasons of removing the tracks? How many years had it been since it‟ d actually had regular service and repair? DP: It was about fifteen years ago since they had the last train go up the track. A lot of people wanted to keep the track and thought, “ Boy that‟ s such a beautiful drive up through there.” It really is, but the railroad estimated it would take well over a million dollars to put the track alone, back into shape to be able to make sure of safe travel for the train going back up through there. So, it‟ s never used that much and so therefore they thought it would be best to abandon the line and just not have to be responsible for it anymore. They were going to turn it back over to the Forest Service who will have the property. 8
HF: So they abandoned the line so the property there where the bed lay and so forth will be turned back to the Targhee Forest Service? DP: Right, on the Idaho side. It‟ ll be the Gallatin Forest Service on the Montana side. HF: How many miles do you have on the Montana side before you reach the terminal point? DP: There would be about seven miles. HF: Now, there wasn‟ t a railroad that tied into that, that went on into Montana was there? West Yellowstone is the terminal? DP: Yes, that‟ s where the railroad stopped. HF: And there wasn‟ t any other line coming in from the other direction? DP: No, no. The only thing that the train did was take people and supplies into West Yellowstone and for the park after the park had been established. The Yellowstone National Park had been established and this was the only ways and means of getting up into the park at one time was through the railroad, and that‟ s why it was built up through there. When we got through the last tie or steel, we were about fifty feet from the Yellowstone Park line, so that‟ s how close we were to the park before the train quit. HF: For so many years, from 1909 until „ 72 approximately, the UP had occasion to serve tourists by taking them up, through, and over and across this branch Yellowstone mine into West Yellowstone Park entrance. Well now, with whom did you contract to start removing? DP: Well we originally bid the total job with the Union Pacific Railroad out of Omaha, Nebraska. It‟ s a case where a high bidder gets the job because the railroad writes up specifications for the removal of this branch line. They don‟ t say there in their contract, but they would like to keep a certain amount of the rail and also a certain amount of the ties, then the rest of it will be turned over to the contractor for him to dispose of the materials, and that‟ s the way he receives his money. And so, they put it out to bid and whoever pays the railroad the highest amount of money, receives the job. Now, we bid the total job— now when I say we, I mean Braun Leashman and myself— we formed a joint venture ship here in Rexburg to work on this. Anyway, we missed the job; we were not the high bidder, so we did not get the total job. A firm from Chicago, named L. B. Fosters got the project, they got the bid. They called us up and asked us, “ You live there, and where you‟ ve bid the job, would you be interested in taking up the ties for us?” and we said “ certainly.” So we got together with them and gave them a bid on tie removal and they would remove the steel. Therefore, we got the tie removal and L. B. Foster Company from Chicago took the steel off the line. HF: But the L. B. Foster people then had the direct contact with the railroad company? 9
DP: Yes, the Union Pacific. HF: And you were a subcontractor? DP: Yes, that‟ s why we‟ re subcontractor under L. B. Foster. HF: What was your bid? DP: Now, ( are) you talking about a bid for the total job, or for the…? HF: Well, let‟ s take them one by one, what did they bid? What did L. B. bid? DP: Well, the Union Pacific Railroad, when they let out bids, they never tell anybody what the bids are. They just send us back a letter saying that they‟ ve awarded the bid to such and such company. And so therefore, we don‟ t know what their prices were. That‟ s just one of their policies. Normally on a bid opening, everybody knows what everybody else bid. But their policies are, you bid and they award it to who they prefer, and it‟ s usually the high bidder, but they don‟ t say what your bids are. HF: That‟ s between the contractor and parties. DP: Right. HF: The railroad‟ s the only one that knows then? DP: Railroad‟ s the only one that knows. HF: Okay. Then when you subcontracted to remove the ties, you made an offer to these people in Chicago? DP: Right. HF: What was that? DP: We paid them $ 25,000 to remove the ties from the track line. HF: You mean they paid you? DP: No, we had to pay them. HF: Okay. DP: Now we had to pay them $ 25,000 and then we have to take up the railroad ties and we had to pay those guys the money, then we get the ties for our disposal, and what we get out of them is how we gain our money 10
HF: I see. Okay, so this $ 25,000 had to ( be) paid in advance? DP: Yes, that‟ s correct. HF: Before the contract was signed? DP: Yes. Now, L. B. Foster has to pay the railroad in advance too before they can start on it. I‟ m sure that their bid was well over a million dollars to give you an idea because our bid was up there fairly close. So they had to pay over a million dollars to take up the line. HF: Before you could remove the ties, the Chicago firm had to remove the tracks? DP: Yes, all the rails HF: All the rails. Who did that for them? Did they contract that? DP: They did that themselves. HF: Did they? DP: They had a crew of men that come in and they did that themselves. HF: Would that have been early in 1981? DP: We all started about the same time. They only had about two weeks start on us and we followed right behind taking the ties up. HF: What kind of equipment did they use to take up the rails? DP: Oh, they have what they call a boat machine that goes along— and those rails were 33 feet in length— and what they would do is go along with a machine that would hook onto those bolts and undo the bolts and some other guys would come by and pound the bolts out. Then they had what they called a spike machine would come along, it‟ s just a little apparatus that rolls along the tracks and reaches down and grabs the spike and pulls it up out of the tie. Then after they do this, they have another machine that comes along, it‟ s like a crane type, and picks up the rail and sets it off to the side, off of the ties. Then they have a crew of men that come behind again that take all the plates and the spikes and things and stack them up along the side of the track line. Then we come by and pick up the railroad ties, and move them out of the road and smooth the road up. Then they‟ ll come back after we go through with semi‟ s, and with this crane again and load the rails back up on their semi‟ s, and they have to drive down the track bed, because it‟ s one- way traffic. And so, we have to work together on it. HF: I see, so you followed up after they got the rails removed, you followed up by taking out the ties? 11
DP: Yes, uh- huh. HF: What inventory of equipment and man power did you use? DP: Well, at our peak of our construction there, taking out the ties, we had 27 men working. We had seven dump trucks and a caterpillar loader that we put special eight foot tines on to go along and pick up the railroad ties, and we‟ d dump them on these trucks that we had. Then we would haul the ties down to Ashton, dump them, then we would stack them up and the truck would go back and get another load. Then we hired some Spanish workers and they came in and sorted these railroad ties out according to their quality, either number ones, twos, or threes. Then we‟ d put 25 of them in a bunk, then we would band them up, then take a fork lift and stack up the railroad ties. HF: 25 in a bunch? DP: Yes. HF: Describe the length and the dimension of each tie. DP: The ties are seven inches by nine inches and these particular ties are fir. A lot of railroads have oak, but these particular ties on this line were about ninety- eight percent fir. They‟ re eight foot to eight foot six inches long. Then when you come to where there are switches or sidings, where they had quite a few them along the track line, you would have what they called switch ties. Some of the ties got up to as much as sixteen feet in length, but they would stay the same dimensions as far as the seven by nine HF: The broad side would be laid down? DP: Yes the broad side would be down. HF: They‟ d be laid on their sides, on the broad side? DP: Right. HF: Do you have any knowledge as to where they got the fir? DP: No, I really don‟ t. I never got into that. HF: Now in the early days of this valley, when they started using the forest up here, why they did have a tie… what did they call that business? “ A tie lock” or tie something business? And they furnished— a lot of ties were cut up out of the Targhee, but I don‟ t know from which area. It could‟ ve been out towards Kilgore, but I‟ m not really positive. DP: I wouldn‟ t know that either. 12
HF: How much would each tie weigh, approximately? DP: A seven by nine inch, eight foot long tie weighs approximately 145 lbs. HF: And before those ties were laid down, they were treated, creosote? DP: Yes, creosote, right. Completely through, one hundred percent treated HF: Now, how close were the ties laid to each other? DP: The way we determined how many ties there are in a track line is that by… we would take a 30 foot piece of rail in which 99 percent of the rail on that particular line was all 33 foot lengths. We would find eighteen and a half ties approximately between each joint of the rail. HF: Eighteen? DP: Yeah, it averaged out about eighteen and a half actually. HF: So there would be just… DP: I‟ m not sure on the inches. HF: Two ties per foot? DP: No, it would be twenty inches apart is what they‟ d be— because there‟ s a thirty- three foot length. HF: Ok, yeah. DP: 33 feet and there‟ s only eighteen and half ties. HF: Right. DP: For an average into that 33 foot length. HF: So around, about every twenty inches or so? DP: Uh- huh. To give you an idea, in a mile, it figures out 2,880 ties a mile. Then if you multiply that out, there was approximately— and the reason we say approximately is because some places it varies a little bit so we have to use the word approximately— there was about a 170 railroad ties in that sixty mile length, which is a lot of ties. Takes up a big area. HF: What percentage of those were class A, B and C? 13
DP: We graded them as one‟ s, two‟ s and three‟ s. We had about sixty percent, well no. I‟ ll have to back up just a little bit. We probably had about 40 percent number one‟ s, and 35 percent number two‟ s, and that would leave us with about 25 percent number three‟ s on that particular line. HF: And did you fix a value, or did you let people come in and bid? DP: No, we established a price on them, at a retail price. The number one‟ s, we‟ re selling for seven dollars each, the number two‟ s, five dollars and fifty cents each, and the number three‟ s for four dollars and fifty cents each. HF: Those were all stacked in the Ashton area were they? DP: Yes, we brought them all down to Ashton and sorted and graded them and stacked them there, and then we‟ re shipping them out from there. HF: And you‟ re still in that process? DP: Yes, we have about thirty thousand ties left to sell and then they‟ ll all be sold. Now, I might want to mention that the railroad contract said they would retain approximately 50,000 of them. When we got all said and done, they only retained about 45,000. And we ended up with about 85,000 ties. The reason that doesn‟ t come up to 170,000 ties is the fact that there were so many rotten ones that had finally rotted away, even though they‟ re treated, they still rot and some of them had rotted away, and therefore we… HF: You didn‟ t even bring them in? DP: Yes, we had to. We brought them in on the trucks then we would pile the stuff up, and we still have a big pile stuff, right. HF: And burn it, or whatever. DP: Yes, and some of them we burned along the track line too. HF: What would a 33 foot rod of iron rail weigh? DP: Well, it depends on what they call it. Now most of that rail up there was called ninety pound rail. That means it weighs 90 pounds for every three feet. So, in a 33 foot it weighs 990 pounds. It‟ s about 1,000 pounds for each rail. HF: So obviously, you had to have equipment to lift them. Two men, one on each end couldn‟ t do the task at all, couldn‟ t even begin to. DP: No, no, you can‟ t even roll them over, not without a bar or something. They‟ re just too heavy because they‟ re so low to the ground, they‟ re just dead weight. 14
HF: Now, as that rail expands, or extends over about twenty ties, are there a couple of bolts, or a couple of spikes in each tie? At least two? DP: Yes, yes. There‟ s a plate underneath of the rail and there‟ s two spikes, unless they‟ re going around a corner, then there will be four spikes. If it‟ s a straight run, they‟ ll just put two spikes in each tie, one on each side of that rail, so each tie has four spikes in it, as a minimum, and it can have as many as eight. HF: Ok, so the plate; there‟ s two plates and they fit up on either side of the rail? DP: Right HF: And in each plate there are two spikes, so you‟ d have a minimum of four spikes… DP: And a maximum of eight. HF: And a maximum of eight. Now, are there any bolts, you were talking about? Weren‟ t you talking about some bolts? DP: Yes. HF: Is that different from the spikes? DP: Yes, what these bolts are, is at every joint, at 33 feet length, they have what they call a joint bar, which is about 18 inches in length and there‟ s one on each side and that‟ s to hold the two rails together, so that when the train passes over it won‟ t pull apart or spread on them. They have big inch bolts that go through there and bolt that together. That‟ s what holds the rail, makes it one solid rail. HF: That‟ s very, very interesting. Now, as you progressed with the contract, and incidentally, when did you actually commence the removal? DP: It was about the second week of August when we started in the… HF: Of 1981? DP: Of 1981, yes. HF: And did you start on the south end? Ashton end?
DP: Yes, we actually started right there at the south end of Ashton and started taking up the track and also the ties. Now everybody always asks us the question, “ Well why didn‟ t you just start at the North end if you‟ re going bring them to Ashton and put the ties and bring them down on railroad cars?” Well, as we explained, it would take too much money to get the track into shape because there were a couple of landslides that had already taken place along the track line, they would‟ ve had to replace the track in order to do that. 15
The reason you can‟ t do it that way anyway is the fact you‟ re always working on top of yourself, because you can‟ t remove anything below you, and once you fill up that train car, where do you take it? And it‟ s just too slow of a process, so it doesn‟ t matter where you start, you just can‟ t haul them by trains, not through the mountains anyway. There‟ s just no way. HF: So, do you use dump trucks to transport the ties? DP: Yes, we had several of them. HF: Now what would you do, go a certain way? Then you‟ d have to backup some. How could you turn around? DP: Well that was the thing. What they did, that was so narrow in some places, you might have a river on one side and a big rocky cliff on the other side, and it might go that way for two or three miles. We can‟ t drive over the ties because it was too rough, so we‟ d have to wait until a truck pulled out with a load of ties, then we‟ d have to back the other truck in because there was no place to turn around. There were places we backed our trucks as far as two and a half miles in to get a load of railroad ties until we could find a place where we could make a turn- around with our trucks. HF: Were these big dump trucks? DP: Yes, most of them were ten- wheelers. HF: Ten- wheelers? Boy that‟ d take some skill to back up wouldn‟ t it? Wouldn‟ t that require a lot of skill? DP: Yes, yes it certainly did. Then not only that but, the track bed isn‟ t all that wide. Most of the time the track bed is only nine feet wide and the truck is eight feet wide, so you don‟ t have a whole lot of variance. In some places it got awful spooky and we did tip a couple of the truck loads of ties off, but we never did ever tip one of our trucks over… very close a time or two, but we never did tip any trucks over. HF: Were the trucks loaded by manual labor? DP: No, we loaded them with a CAT loader that we built some special tines on and they were eight foot long. We‟ d pick up about 20 ties at a time or 25 and dump onto the truck. HF: But you‟ d have to straighten them a little bit. DP: Then we‟ d straighten them a little bit. DP: And then we‟ d haul them down and unload them, then just raise the hoist and unload them and then sort and grade them. 16
HF: Any other problem encounters that you experienced? How about when you got to this tunnel, was that a problem? DP: No, that was no problem. One of the biggest problems— and it‟ s hard to imagine unless you‟ ve done something like this— is communications. Because on a job like this, you‟ re always on the move, you‟ re always a moving. You never work in the same place twice. The guys would get lost because they‟ d have to go down a different road. They didn‟ t know if the guys were below them or above them, they didn‟ t know where the roads were, they didn‟ t know which way the guys went, and so we had real communication problems. We had some radios, but not everybody had a radio. And then, when it would come time to quit, the guy on the loader didn‟ t know if any more trucks were coming, and he had already moved a mile from where he was this morning or a mile and a half and so communication became a real problem. HF: I‟ d imagine that‟ s a sticky problem with a truck backing up so far, and low and behold, someone was coming down the other direction, with a load. DP: Yeah, because he doesn‟ t know if there is anybody down there or not, and so it takes a lot of coordination and that happened a time or two. He got backed clear down in there and then he had to pull out and clear back down and let the truck out and back in again HF: You did have a few intercepting roads didn‟ t you? DP: Yes, there was a few. When we could, we surely used them, I can guarantee you that. Yeah, Forest Service roads would cross it every once in awhile and anytime we could, we‟ d use those roads, make our turnarounds and stuff. HF: And how long did it take you to complete this project, from the second week of August I think you said, until when? DP: Yes. We were about two and half months, by the time we got all the railroad ties out. They‟ re all out of the track bed now, and we got them out around the first of November. HF: Have any winter problems, any snow before that time? DP: No, not really. We had them pretty well all sorted and graded and had them all out, so we felt real good about that. We stayed right on it; we worked six days a week, about fourteen hours a day to do that job. We liked it because it gave us an opportunity to work a lot of the men that didn‟ t have work and we felt like we caused a lot of revenue here for the community, and we felt real good about it. It gave us a challenge and an opportunity to do something. HF: How much money did you pay out? 17
DP: We spent approximately 300,000 dollars in the first two months on that operation trying to get those out, a few trucks and labor and stuff. All that money circulated here in the valley, so we felt real good and confident about that. HF: Now, did you have a permanent camp in the area? DP: No, just at Ashton where we did our sorting and grading. HF: So every night, why the workers would go back to their homes? DP: Right, yes, because the thing is, we were always moving, and it makes it tough because you‟ re always moving. We had to bring everything and establish it at Ashton, so we would meet there in the mornings and try to make sure we got everybody back at night time. HF: Any accidents? DP: Umm, yeah we had a couple little accidents where the trucks would either run into a tree or something, trying to get their loads around and when you get a big truck loaded with railroad ties and you‟ re on a road twelve feet wide, it‟ s easy to have problems. HF: So there was some property damage? DP: To our trucks and stuff, but we didn‟ t do anything like that as… HF: No personal injury? DP: No, nope, we got by pretty well that way. Oh there might have been a bruise or a scratch or something, but nobody got hurt. Boy we really felt fortunate about that. No injuries. HF: Now, with the removal of that line, quite a lot of history was taken out wasn‟ t it? DP: Oh, a tremendous amount. It‟ s such a beautiful spot up through there, it‟ s too bad they couldn‟ t have kept the line and used it for a drive up through there. I‟ m sure financially it just wasn‟ t feasible. HF: Do you know what the Forest Service is going to do with it? DP: They would like it to go back into the natural state I think, like to have it go back to trees and stuff. HF: What about a trail for skidooing, snowmobiling trail?
DP: I talked to a few of the guys in the Forest Service and they said that they would like to make it so it could be a hike trail. Or you could walk down it you know, or ride a bike 18
or something like this, but not motor vehicles— not cars or pickups or anything like that. They‟ d like to have it for— because it‟ s so beautiful and so quiet up through there that it‟ s— I hope they do that. I hope they keep maybe the line clear so that people can walk along there because there‟ s some beautiful views of the countryside up there that nobody ever sees because there was no way to get to it, only up the track line. HF: Now on that basis, one could walk for many miles, even without having to cross any water course, isn‟ t that right? DP: Well, you would cross the rivers and stuff, and culverts and stuff, but they‟ re still in, all except for Warm River, which you can get off and go out around anyway because there‟ s enough bridges right there you can get around. HF: So you could manage that? DP: Yeah, you could actually start right at Ashton and go clear to West Yellowstone and never get off on it. You‟ d have to get off at Warm River where those two bridges are out and just come around them, which is only about a half a mile. So that would be no problem. HF: But that could be a real hike? DP: Oh, that‟ s a beautiful hike, yes. Matter of fact, when it came fall time, I went and got my family and took my family up through there and they just thought that was beautiful. HF: On a hike or…? DP: No, we just drove along it, because we were still working on the line and I knew that we could drive along it and we‟ d made a road, we‟ d used it as a road, so we just drove along because we had a bunch of little kids. HF: Now, a person with a jeep or a pickup could do that same thing? DP: Oh yes, matter of fact a lot of hunters used that road last fall, the hunters that were up there hunting. HF: It‟ s smooth enough so there wouldn‟ t be no problem? DP: Oh yes, right for the lower end. For the upper end you‟ d have some problems, but this lower end you wouldn‟ t have any problems. HF: That‟ d be interesting wouldn‟ t it? That‟ d be a fine thing to do. Well I appreciate this interview on this subject. Anything else that you would wish to present to the listener for historic purposes? 19
DP: Yes, judge. I think, when I came and talked— spoke at the rotary— I told you about some date nails that we had that were in the ties. Now, at one time they would go along, and when a tie got rotten or bad, they would pull it out, and put a new tie in there. Well, at one time, they drove nails in there with a date on it, and that‟ s to tell the guys when they replaced that tie. And I brought some of these here. They say that they‟ re a collectors item, and I‟ ll give these to you, Judge, and you can take them down there— you can see that they‟ re quite large, HF: What‟ s that date? DP: That‟ s 1931; it just says 31 on it. And I‟ ve got a 35 and I think there‟ s a 30, and if you can tell judge, there‟ s two of them that are 29‟ s. Now that‟ s a 29 right there that you‟ ve got your index finger on, and there should be another 29, right there, that‟ s one of them yeah. Well anyway, these nails are quite keepsakes. There are two of them that have 29 written on them and they must have been made by two different companies because it‟ s got a different stamp on it. 20
Dean Palmer Interview Two This particular subject matter deals with Mountain West Bark. And again, on this twenty- seventh day of March, a Saturday, 1982, I‟ m interviewing Mr. Dean Leroy Palmer. Harold Forbush: Dean, I understand that a new business has been established here in Rexburg, which you refer to as, Mountain West Bark. Dean Palmer: Yes, that‟ s correct. HF: Tell me a little about who heads this business and what is it? DP: Frank Daniels and myself got thinking about this, all the waste product that Louisiana Pacific down here was burning. ( Of) Course, and you know, utilities are getting quite expensive, power bills are getting high and the heat bills are getting high. We knew that there had to be something done with the burning that was going on from the lumber mills. So we got involved with some other people in talking to them about decorative bark that we use for landscaping and also for soil aides that go into ground that help mellow the soil so that your plants will do better, the gardens and the lawns, things of this sort, potting soils. Well anyway, we made a deal with Louisiana Pacific to take their waste products and manufacture it into a useful product and therefore we eliminated the burning, we cleaned up the air, we cleaned up the debris and made a useful product out of a waste product. HF: When was this commenced? When was the idea formed? DP: The idea was formed back in 1980, and we never got really going. We made our contract with Louisiana Pacific in the very first part, in January of „ 81 and we started construction in March 3, „ 81 of a bark plant down here in Rexburg just west of Louisiana Pacific. We now employ about seven men down there full- time. HF: What did you do? Acquire an area of ground down there? DP: Louisiana Pacific has had some ground on the west side of the tracks and they have leased that to us, then we have leased some other land just to put out stock piles on. HF: How much grounds actually do you have, an acre, two acres, or more? DP: I‟ m guessing we have around five acres down there HF: I see. Now that‟ d be right next to the south fork of the Teton River wouldn‟ t it? DP: Yes, we‟ re awful close to that. We‟ re right next to a canal bank there and we‟ re just north of the Utah Power and Light substation down there. We have about five acres, and if you were to go down there today, you‟ ll see mountains of this soil pep and soil aide that we have, and also decorative bark that we have and we‟ re shipping it everyday. 21
HF: Now, do you have a building? DP: Well we have an office trailer down there yes, and we have what they call a bagging building, is the only per say building that we have down there. But we have a squirrel cage, that we call it. It‟ s a rotating drum that separates all the items as they come over to us. They had to put some large machinery in that they call a hog, and it breaks all these, the bark down and the fines, and it‟ s blown over in a pipe, and it comes down into a hopper, then goes up into a conveyer belt and into this squirrel cage and then it separates it. It‟ s a big separator is what it is. HF: So there is a conveyor that takes it from Louisiana premises where it‟ s debarked from the tree or something and then it‟ s conveyed by a belt or something down to your facility? DP: Oh yes. HF: On top of the ground? DP: No, it comes into a big hopper, or we can run it over, or run it on the ground and used it as our convenience. Either way we‟ d like to do it. HF: What is it, a belt affair? DP: No, it comes over in a big tube and it‟ s just blown over. HF: In a tube? DP: Yes, a big long tube. HF: Is the tube on the ground or… DP: No, it‟ s above the ground. It‟ s about thirty or forty feet in the air matter of fact. HF: And it‟ s supported by some kind of… DP: Columns. HF: Columns I see. And what would that be, several hundred feet wouldn‟ t it? DP: Oh, I believe they said they put in about 370 feet of pipe. Time the come from where they‟ re HF: What size of pipe? DP: Eight inch. 22
HF: Eight inch pipe, and its blowing over. What in the heck kind of a jigger would you have to blow it over? DP: They just got a big blower on there. And of course, it‟ s a sealed pipe, so once the air starts through it, the only way out is the other end. And it never plugs up on us, so, it just blows right on through. HF: Plastic? DP: No, it‟ s steel. HF: Steel pipe. DP: When you‟ re over there listening, and you‟ ll have to come down and listen to that because all of the sudden you hear something that‟ s just a Bing! Bing! Bing! Bing! In there and it‟ s a rock coming through there and you can hear it banging on the pipe as it‟ s coming along through there. HF: What‟ s the rock for? DP: Well it was just caught up from a tree or something, come on through the system. HF: Oh, I see, otherwise, it‟ s just light bark? DP: Yeah, we get the sawdust and everything comes there. All their waste stuff they used to burn, used to have a heck of a time trying to keep it all burned and there was always a cloud of smoke over the town. Now they don‟ t burn anything and we‟ ve turned it all into useful products. HF: So you actually take from that facility all of the excess, all of the waste? DP: Oh yes, the plantar shavings, the bark, everything, yes, uh huh. HF: And then once it gets over into the hopper the items are graded into various sizes? DP: Yeah, it goes up into what they call a squirrel cage because it rotates and has different sizes of screens in there and then it falls into bins. Then it‟ s all separated for us and so all we have to do is go in there with a big loader and scoop it up and then we pile it up. Then when we get a load that calls for a certain item, certain size of bark or something like that, it‟ s already graded for us. HF: And how many sizes do you have? DP: We have three sizes of bark and we have several different soil peps. 23
HF: Ok, now the sizes of bark, the decorative bark, it comes in three sizes? DP: Yes, we call them large bark, medium bark, and then pathway bark; the pathway being the smaller bark. And that‟ s the way it‟ s denoted in the landscaping business. HF: Now, to put bark under an evergreen tree, to keep the moisture in and so on, what size would you use? DP: Well, I like to use the pathway bark personally, but most people use the large bark. That seems to be the most popular, but I like the smaller bark myself. I think it looks a lot better, but everybody has their own preference there. And I‟ ve brought some bark with me today that I‟ m going leave with you today judge. This is a piece of fir bark. You can see that it‟ s quite thick. Fir bark is very thick. I‟ ve got two pieces of that, and I‟ ll leave those with you. And also, I got a piece of Pine bark from over in… it‟ s the largest piece that I‟ ve got here. Now that‟ s more… you might be able to feel a difference there between the two of them. They‟ re thick, but it‟ s a… HF: What kind of a tree does this come from? DP: That‟ s a pine tree there. HF: Is that pine? It isn‟ t lodgepole? DP: No, it‟ s not lodgepole pine. They just have a real thin skin, a bark. This comes over from the Salmon area and I‟ m not sure the name of the tree on that one. HF: Isn‟ t Douglas… it isn‟ t a fir. DP: No it‟ s not a fir, it‟ s a pine. But there is quite a bit of difference when you really look at them, but there‟ s very few of those trees around. That‟ s why this is one of the only mills in the country that has one hundred percent fir trees. They do one hundred percent fir here, and that‟ s why this is an ideal bark plant. HF: This is Douglas? DP: That‟ s Douglas fir. HF: Ok, now you‟ ve found that out for your pep part of it, Douglas fir is the best? DP: Well, no. For the bark it is, just for the bark. HF: For the decorative bark is your Douglas fir? And this is Douglas fir? DP: Right. And the larger one is a pine. Now we‟ ve been using that and it works good, but you can‟ t find very much of it. 24
HF: I see. DP: If we could find more of it, that‟ d be a different story, but there just isn‟ t that many, and the forests are getting cleaned up. The problem that‟ s happening now… HF: Now there are various colorations in these. DP: Yes there is. HF: And it‟ s quite attractive. DP: Oh very attractive stuff, yes. Yes, when it‟ s displayed out as far as the shrubs, around your shrubs and trees, it‟ s very pretty, decorative, and that‟ s why they call it decorative bark. HF: Now, on your pep, which makes your soil more light and easy to handle and so forth, how is that made? DP: Well it‟ s just the fines, the sawdust and everything else. What we do, we take it, and it has to stabilize. And what stabilize is, is that if you were to take plain sawdust and put it on your soil, it takes from your soil until it starts to break down. So we have to set it out into piles and let it heat for a period of 90 days to 120 and let it heat and darken. After it gets to a certain point, it will add to the soil and not take away, and it makes your soil mellow, especially people that have clay soils, or alkaline type soils. It takes it and makes it mellow so that the soil can breathe. It‟ s easy to work; the plants do a lot better. It‟ s not really a fertilizer, it‟ s a soil conditioner sort of a product. HF: I see, what‟ s in that sawdust, is it an acid, turpentine? DP: It‟ s a turpentine type stuff in there and it has to just get rid of it. HF: Completely neutralize it. DP: Yeah neutralize is what it does. And after it does that, then you have a nice useable product you can put into your yard. Actually it does fertilize it in little ways, but it‟ s not really a fertilizer it‟ s more of a soil conditioner. It just makes your soil mellow and easy to work, and it‟ s easy to plant things. Things grow good in it because it breaths and it‟ s not all clotted up and everything. That‟ s what it‟ s for. HF: Do you put fertilizer with that soil builder? DP: Oh, no we don‟ t here, but people will take it and put it on their gardens and stuff to make their soils mellow, then they‟ ll go ahead and put commercial fertilizer or whatever they feel on it. 25
HF: In your talk, that one day, I think you mentioned that you did bring in barnyard manure. DP: Okay, yes, and mix with it then that way it does have some fertilizer. But we‟ re just experimenting with that and we‟ re coming up with a lot better product we feel. We‟ re only mixing about ten percent of that with it, and it helps stabilize it a lot faster too because of the heat. It gets up to about 175 degrees in those piles we have down there. HF: Do you water them? Of course you‟ d have to. DP: Yes, we have to water them in the summer time. Where it‟ s been raining lately, we don‟ t have to do that, just in the summer to have moisture in there so it‟ ll heat. HF: Now, how is this product sold? DP: We‟ ve gone through a broker— Far West Nurseries out of California— and they arrange for the different nurseries around the country to buy this bark and this soil pep. We either sell it by bulk in semi- loads, or by bags. Most of the nurseries like to buy bags, but there‟ s some who like to buy bulk because people come in and say, “ I want a pickup load” or something like that. So they‟ ll buy a semi- load of it bulk and just dump ( it) out on the ground and then their people will pick it up that way. HF: So if I went over there to your place and wanted a half load of a pickup, how much would that cost me of your pep? DP: Oh, a half a load would be… I think $ 25. I believe that‟ s the price. HF: Half a pickup load? And that would be just a soil builder? DP: Yes, that‟ s right. HF: And then ( it would) probably be the best to get my decorative bark in bags? DP: Yes, uh huh. You could get it bulk over there if you wanted, where we‟ re right here. But most places we don‟ t send bark bulk because they like it in the bags at most nurseries. But here, where we‟ re right next to the plant, you can go down there and get some, see? HF: Are people in the area starting to do this? DP: Oh yes, a tremendous amount. We‟ ll have fifty pickups in there in the next thirty days. Yes, trucks and everything else they‟ ve got. HF: You‟ re comment about the man who is quite anxious to make sure that he got his fifty dollars worth was a quite amusing account. Well now, where is this bark and this soil pep going? 26
DP: We send a tremendous amount to Denver, Utah area. I‟ m quite surprised, we send a lot of bark back to Greenbay, Wisconsin. Seemed like they sure like it back in that country, even though they have a lot of forests and stuff back there, and a lot of trees, they like this Mountain West Bark. I guess that‟ s maybe where we got our name from, but they like this Mountain West Fir Bark. They just love it, and their people are used to it, and they know it, and they want it, and we send a tremendous amount of it back there. And in Illinois and Indiana, back in that country takes a lot of it. HF: Now, is the Louisiana Pacific able to be a sufficient supplier? DP: No. Matter of fact, they‟ ve been down for about the last six months due to the economy. They‟ ve promised us that they‟ ll start up by the 15th of next month— which would be the 15th of April of ‟ 82— and we‟ re hauling what they call hog fuel up to some of these other mills because they take all this product. Instead of buying natural gas or using oil to run their factories, they use these waste products from these mills and we haul some of that up there to them, and we bring decorative bark back. There are some plants up there that have some fir, and also some of this heavier pine bark and we haul it back and we run it through our system here and send it out that way, so that‟ s what‟ s helping us out a lot here. HF: So you had stock piled a lot of this hog fuel and you‟ re hauling it out to where, up in Montana? DP: Missoula, Montana area and Dillon. HF: I see, and you bring some of this decorative bark and so forth back? DP: We bring the bark back. HF: An interesting little experience the other day— I had one of your haulers in on a traffic citation. DP: Yes. HF: Overweight; coming across the mountains, picked up a lot of ice, and snow, and moisture and so on, so he‟ s got a little problem to settle by next week I think. DP: [ Laughs] Yeah he told us about that. I don‟ t know which way I‟ d do on that one. HF: Any other thing you— the cost— do you want to say something about the price that is charged to these bags? DP: Well, we‟ re selling the bags here. Of course, the broker takes a little money, but we sell a bag of bark which is 3 cubic feet for a dollar thirty, and the soil pep is seven dollars a yard. So there‟ s 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard so the soil pep is the least expensive. But the bark is the most popular thing that we have too. 27
HF: Now, I mean there are some real redeeming features about this business. It‟ s non- pollutant, in fact it‟ s saving pollution from occurring isn‟ t it? And you‟ re using a product that was formally just totally burned. DP: So what we‟ ve done… and it does several things. They had a big burner here, that causes air pollution, and it‟ s all gone. We‟ ve taken that product, established a useful product, and when you do that, you create employment that helps the economy, so it‟ s helpful all the way around. Before, they didn‟ t have to have anybody out there burning it, and now we‟ ve got seven full- time employees over there trying to take care of the useful product plus everything else that we do. So it‟ s created revenue for the community as well as ourselves. HF: And you‟ re just getting started. DP: Yes, we‟ ve been going just a year today… is basically since we‟ ve been a really going on it. HF: The potential is real great? DP: Matter of fact, I was down there talking to Frank Daniels just a few minutes before I came down here. We came across a guy last year from Japan. They would like to buy, from us, if we could supply it, one million tons of this soil pep for their country in Japan— a year. Now, to give you an idea, we figure we can come up with twenty thousand tons is all out of this particular plant, which is only two percent of what they need, or would like to buy from us. The potential is quite great and Louisiana Pacific wants us to go open up other plants that they have around other mills and get this product and make a useful product out of this. HF: And you may do this? DP: Yes, we may do it. And another savings that we‟ re thinking about is that— and they‟ re doing it around the country— is that they‟ re not burning anymore. You will not find very many mills burning, but they‟ re selling it for hog fuel. This hog fuel goes over and it saves on petroleum because we don‟ t have to burn natural gas and oil to heat these big factories and plants anymore. We use this waste product that we‟ ve been just piling up and burning for years. HF: For example, the American Potato Plant out north of town is bringing in their hog fuel from the Stead Mellow. DP: Up to St. Anthony and they‟ re bringing it in and stock piling it and using it. I forgot what they figured their savings was but it was phenomenal amount of money. It heats their whole plants and runs their whole system and it saves a tremendous amount of money as well as petroleum products, which are extremely high— makes itself more self- sustaining. 28
HF: I think all this is a compliment to you and Frank Daniels ingenuity, imagination. These things take place in free enterprise and brother, you see some great results don‟ t you? DP: You certainly do, and that‟ s one of the biggest things that I enjoy about life, and especially this country. I‟ m a real believer in the country in the fact that, if I want to do something, the only limitation that‟ s on me is me, myself. And we still have all the freedoms we enjoy here. When you have competitiveness, the scriptures tell us that there must needs be opposition in all things, but nevertheless, in this country, in this day and age, we‟ re still able to do the things we like and if we want to go out and better ourselves, we have the opportunity, and what makes the country go. I remember— if you don‟ t mind a little story here— I remember I had pneumonia about a year ago and I was home and “ Hogan‟ s Heroes” was on T. V. Colonel Hogan was telling the Colonel who was a German officer, he said: “ There‟ s only one difference between your country and ours.” He says, “ In your country, Hitler thinks for you. In our country, we all think for ourselves.” He said, “ That‟ s the only difference between our two countries.” I thought that was quite a comment. I‟ ve thought about that many times, and what Frank and I want to do, and what I want to do of course with my family, is to make a better country, a better community, and a better city for my kids coming up. Anything that we can do to better ourselves for our future generations, I‟ m one hundred percent for that. HF: What do you figure that it has cost you to launch this project— for your equipment, for your facilities down there and so on? DP: We figured we‟ ve spent basically around 450,000 dollars with it for equipment, construction materials and everything. So it‟ s quite a sizeable undertaking at this time. HF: If you can furnish, how many tons a year from this plant? DP: Well, at least 20,000 tons. That‟ s not counting the bark. That would be just for the soil pep. But we have no problems getting rid of it. HF: Well that‟ s tremendous. I commend you and Frank Daniels. Thank you so much today. DP: Yeah, thank you.