Martin Mickelsen (November 1, 1980)

              Voices From the Past
A Biographical Sketch of Martin Mickelsen
By Martin Mickelsen
November 1, 1980
Tape # 80
Oral Interview conducted by Harold Forbush
Transcribed by Bradley Broschinsky
Edited by Jasmine Scholes March 2006
Brigham Young University- Idaho
Harold Forbush: Side one the interview with one Martin Mickelsen. Being done here at Rexburg, Idaho on the first day of November 1980. I welcome you to this interview Mr. Mickelsen this morning and would ask you to state your full name and if you have a nickname.
Martin Mickelson: No, Martin Mickelsen.
HF: No nickname?
MM: No middle names.
HF: And how do you spell your last name?
MM: M- i- c- k- e- l- s- e- n.
HF: Alright. Where were you born and when?
MM: I was born in 19, in October the 13th 1911. In what they called Oasis then which was later called Richville. That’s on the west side of the Teton basin.
HF: Now, you were born up there and this means that your mom and dad had moved up there.
MM: Yes mother was born at a barn in Sugar City?
HF: And what was her maiden name?
MM: Hill. Maryann Hill.
HF: Maryann Hill?
MM: Yes.
HF: And her father?
MM: Was William Hill. William Jay Hill.
HF: William Jay Hill. And do you remember her mother’s name?
MM: Maryann Hill.
HF: Maryann?
MM: Yeah.
HF: Hill. And what was her maiden name?
MM: Adams. Williamson.
HF: Williamson?
MM: Maryann Williamson yes.
HF: And she became a Hill of course afterwards.
MM: Yes.
HF: And so now they of course would be your grandparents.
MM: Yes.
HF: Grandpa and Grandma.
MM: Yes, on my mother’s side.
HF: On your mother’s side. Did they ever move into the basin?
MM: Grandma and Grandpa Hill?
HF: Yes.
MM: They homestead in there and I think it was 1906.
HF: Now where did they locate?
MM: On the west side of Teton Basin by Pack Saddle Creek.
HF: Up there. Now would that be on the west side, on the west side of the river?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. About three miles on the west side of the river.
HF: On the west side of the river?
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: There is quite a lot of flat, fairly flat land in is there?
MM: Yes.
HF: Between the Teton River and the forest area?
MM: Yes, it’s about three miles wide and it’s about, I think, eighteen miles long. And it’s flat in there pretty well flat. HF: And it goes clear from Harab’s Hill what south down to…
MM: Towards Victor.
HF: Clear to Victor.
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: Uh, quite a lot of land right there…
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: And, uh, it’s good soil isn’t it?
MM: Well, pretty well— yes dry farming mostly down away from the mountains.
HF: Mm hmm. But there isn’t a lot of rock and junk in there is there?
MM: No, none. No very little.
HF: Very little rock?
MM: Very little rock.
HF: And if you could just get the water on there…
MM: Yes.
HF: Why it would be tremendous.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
HF: Okay now well you told me about your maternal grandparents, how bout your father? Now his name was? Your father’s name.
MM: Chris, Christian they called him and Mickelsen. And he was born in what they called Gentile Valley down by Grace.
HF: I say in Gentile Valley.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: You remember about when he was born?
MM: 19 or 1887. HF: ’ 87?
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: 1887. Let’s see you told me you were born in on the 13th of October of what year?
MM: 1911.
HF: 1911. Okay, now your father was born in Gentile Valley, you say, near Grace.
MM: Right.
HF: And who was his father, who was your grandfather?
MM: Christian Mickelsen.
HF: Now another words your father took his fathers name?
MM: Yes, right uh- huh.
HF: And who was your mother?
MM: Alice.
HF: Now I mean who was your grandmother Mickelsen?
MM: Christine Anderson, before Granddad married her.
HF: Christine?
MM: Uh- huh, Anderson.
HF: Anderson. A- N- D- E- R- S?
MM: O- N.
HF: O- N.
MM: Right.
HF: And before he, before she married your grandfather.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Mm hmm. Now did your paternal grandparents ever move into the valley? MM: No, no. You mean on father’s side?
HF: Mm hmm.
MM: No.
HF: They didn’t ever move into the valley?
MM: No, no.
HF: But you got acquainted with them down through the years?
MM: Well Dad left home when he was, I think, nineteen and went- he worked in Chester on a little daddle they put in up there. And they he went to Teton Basin and started a working at this reservoir that went out in 1908.
HF: In 1908 so your dad the thing that your dad, moved into the valley you think about 1908?
MM: Yes, it was 1908.
HF: Dad and mother.
MM: No, just Dad and then he met Mother.
HF: Oh.
MM: And they was married in 1909 see.
HF: Oh, where were they married?
MM: They was married in the, oh boy, I think they was married here in Rexburg.
HF: Were they?
MM: As near as I can tell you now.
HF: Now she was a Sugar City girl?
MM: Yes.
HF: And your dad had been up in Chester.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And up in the Valley. MM: Right.
HF: And so on, went up there alone as a single man.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And they were married and they moved up there to Oasis and…
MM: Dad homesteaded there in 1909.
HF: And your dad homesteaded.
MM: Yeah.
HF: Now, do you remember was his— was his farm on the west side of the valley?
MM: Yes.
HF: And west of the Teton River?
MM: Yes.
HF: What was it, was it in the mouth of …
MM: No, it was a half mile south of the Pack Saddle Creek.
HF: Okay, a half mile south that would be towards Victor.
MM: Right, right along the side of the mountain.
HF: Right along the side of the mountain, how many, how many acres did he settle?
MM: He had 160.
HF: 160. Was it in one square piece?
MM: Yes.
HF: A quarter of a section.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
HF: Now did the creek itself, the creek itself didn’t go through his place though.
MM: No, no. HF: It was to the north of his place.
MM: Right.
HF: Did that creek Martin, pretty well flow east from where it got started?
MM: Yes, it was pretty straight east all the way.
HF: Quite a long, stream was it?
MM: Yeah, well it was about two and half miles for it come out of the mountains from where the, well you might say about three miles cause it was where they built the reservoir where the biggest springs came out about a half mile west into the creek bed there. There was several streams come into the creek bed.
HF: Okay, now what was the main source of Pack Saddle Creek? Was it a spring or snow water?
MM: Yes, it was a spring, yes.
HF: And it would be located back how far west of the river would you say? How many miles would you say?
MM: Well it would be about…
HF: From the river itself.
MM: To the, you mean to the head of the stream.
HF: Uh- huh.
MM: About six miles.
HF: About six miles due west of the river.
MM: Yes.
HF: And the source of Pack Saddle Creek was a spring of water.
MM: Right.
HF: And you’ve been there.
MM: Oh yes. There was two stream come in there. There’s one stream what they called north fork of Pack Saddle Creek and one on the south fork of Pack Saddle Creek. But the one on the north fork didn’t put to much water out just a fair stream was all.
HF: Mm hmm.
MM: But the south fork put out a pretty good stream of water.
HF: But the source was a spring?
MM: Right.
HF: And then it was joined by the north fork.
MM: Yeah.
HF: North fork.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And where the two joined together, the dam itself was built below that point.
MM: It was built above on the, above the north fork.
HF: It was built a…
MM: It was built about a mile above the north fork on the south, on the south fork ‘ cause it had the most water in it.
HF: Oh, oh I see. And that was the good location, what was it a ravine or something there?
MM: Yes, kind of a ravine down through there.
HF: Mm- hmmm, now of course both of those streams would be fed also by snow water wouldn’t they?
MM: No, they, early in the spring it had the high water the snow water.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: But after that then we lowered down to all we had was the spring water.
HF: Just the spring water.
MM: Yes.
HF: I see. And so actually the what went into the reservoir then was just the water from the main creek.
MM: That’s right and then they would hold up the snow water to, you know, and back it up for the summer’s use and kind of holding just a reservoir is what it was.
HF: I see.
MM: And then the small stream just come in there kind of kept it up, you know, about where they had plenty of water.
HF: Mm- hmm. Now, what is your understanding as to what got the dam going?
MM: Well, it was Granddad Hill was one that started it all.
HF: Now that was you mother’s…
MM: Dad.
HF: Dad. And his name was?
MM: Bill. William Hill.
HF: William Hill.
MM: Right.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: And that there was— he put that in mostly for his own, own use— own private use.
HF: Now the stream, did the stream itself come down unto his property…
MM: Yes.
HF: His homestead?
MM: Yes, right into it.
HF: Now was he just north of your dad’s homestead?
MM: Right.
HF: Lay immediately north?
MM: Yes, we joined him on the south. We joined Granddad’s place on the south. HF: I see. And he had what 160 acres?
MM: Granddad you mean?
HF: Uh- huh.
MM: No he had, well he had six, 320 of his own. No, I guess he 640 acres all told.
HF: You think he had the whole section?
MM: Yeah.
HF: Was it all together?
MM: Pretty well yes, uh- huh.
HF: I see. Now but he had some other neighbors helping though didn’t he?
MM: Ah.
HF: Build this thing?
MM: No, what I understood he done it all alone. He financed it himself, but he hired help to do it.
HF: I see. Do you remember the dam?
MM: Yes.
HF: As a kid?
MM: Yes.
HF: Now you were born in 1911?
MM: But you see I remember when the dam went out is what I remember on it.
HF: Okay, now, when did it go out?
MM: It went out in 1915.
HF: In 1915?
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: How do you know it was in 1915? MM: Well, my sister is a little older than me and I called her last night in Montana and she told me it was 1915. That she went out, and we all went over and looked at the dam, as it down by Grandmother’s place and Granddad’s place.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: And I can remember to hear them talk about it and going over in the wagon and looking at it and I remember the barns and the corrals and sheep corrals and everything was all gone. And that’s about as far as I can remember about it during that time.
HF: But your sister who is older than you confirmed. Was it in the summertime?
MM: Yes, high of the spring of the year.
HF: When the moisture, when the snow water and everything was the greatest?
MM: Yeah.
HF: And it just, just collapsed?
MM: Yeah, see Uncle John was— that was Mother’s brother. She was supposed to; he was supposed to watch the dam. And keep the overflow on the, on the north side of the dam. They had a kind of a cut through rock and that was supposed to bent to the overflow take care of the overflow water, but it got to high on the dam see and it’s supposed to go through that.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: And that filled up with brush and my uncle John— that was Mother’s brother, was supposed to watch that but he didn’t do it. And therefore it plugged up and took the dam out.
HF: As far as statistics are concerned can you, do you have any idea how long the dam. Now I’m assuming that the dam, face of the dam, sort of went north and south.
MM: No, the dam was straight on the west slope. The dam was built north and south.
HF: That’s what I mean…
MM: Yeah.
HF: The face of it was…
MM: Right.
HF: The face of it was the face of it was with north and south. MM: Right.
HF: For example the west is over this way and it flowed right straight, right straight east.
MM: Right.
HF: Coming out of the west.
MM: Right.
HF: And the dam was across this way.
MM: Right.
HF: And did you have any idea how, how long it could have been?
MM: How long the dam was?
HF: Mm- hmm. North south.
MM: For as it runs in my mind there was 387 yards. Is what they figured— long.
HF: Three hundred and some odd yards.
MM: Yeah.
HF: Gee that…
MM: I think there was 380 dad told me.
HF: Well that could’ve been upwards then of a thousand feet.
MM: Right.
HF: About a thousand feet long.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And a thousand feet— five thousand see that would be about a fifth of a mile.
MM: Right.
HF: That’s a pretty good size.
MM: Yeah it. Of course they maybe… HF: What… how did they, what did they build it of?
MM: I thought it was built out of what they called slate rock.
HF: And that was right in the area?
MM: Yeah, and then there was dirt filled in all in behind it, you know.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: And what they called was cribbing up the front. It was built kind of like staircase with the rock laid in up the front to keep it from washing.
HF: So you had, so you had cribbing in front, that would be on the east side on the face of it.
MM: That’d be on the west side of the face of it.
HF: Oh on the west, okay.
MM: Right.
HF: Right where the water would hit.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Okay, then you had dirt piled against the rock.
MM: Yes, well it was kind of a what they’d kind of done was cause the canyon was kind of narrow there. And they pulled the hill down in behind it, see, and put the dam right up against the hill on the south side.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: And that there hill kind of acted as a bank behind the dam, see.
HF: I see.
MM: And that’s the way it was built.
HF: Mm- hmm. So on the, on the south side of the reservoir was their, was the hill.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: And then you had the face of the dam right against the hill coming out kind of at right angle. MM: That’s right. Uh- huh.
HF: And what did you have it anchored with on the north?
MM: Well there was another hill across there and the dam ran across into it. And there was possibly, oh, 40- 50 feet where the main canyon was it went down through there and maybe even a little better than that. And then they built that all up with the rock and put their facing in on the front of that and run it across into the other hill, on the north.
HF: I see.
MM: Then they made their spillway on the north side they cut into the hill and down and get kind of like a big ditch through there was the way the spillway was built let it come out down, oh, probably a little ways from the dam and dump back into the canyon.
HF: And that’s the thing, that, it’s in that area where they— any excessive water why they’d drain it off there. And he didn’t keep it cleaned out and uh, the pressures just got to great.
MM: Yes, that’s right. Well it went over the top of it from what they said.
HF: I see.
MM: They couldn’t as many logs, there was trees that were dead up above the dam. And when the spring high water hit and everything it washed them down while the dam was full, say of water.
HF: Mm- hmm.
MM: They forced them up in there were the water was going out and they just damned it off.
HF: Martin, is that canyon fairly steep?
MM: Yes.
HF: The pressure would have be pretty great wouldn’t it?
MM: Yes it would have, uh- huh.
HF: And the canyon is pretty steep right through there.
MM: That’s right.
HF: From the dam going west.
MM: Well, no. HF: It’s pretty steep.
MM: The dam going west it was kind of a valley in there maybe, I’d say about 40 acres. Was pretty level in there and it was just kind of a meadow like.
HF: I see.
MM: And he put the dam right in the bottom of that, see?
HF: I see. But going back beyond that point, why it was pretty steep.
MM: Yes, uh- huh, yes it was all mountains back behind that to the west.
HF: And how many acres do you say the surface of the dam would be? In the neighborhood of 40 acres?
MM: No it was, I would say around a 100.
HF: Around 100 acres.
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: Of water.
MM: Yes.
HF: Mm- hmm. Now that was built in 1908.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And have you heard of anyone who helped your uncle, your grandpa?
MM: Well, yes.
HF: Course his son John, I imagined help.
MM: Yeah, there was Billy, and Dad, and a feller name Emal Krugar and…
HF: Emal Krugar, K- R- U- G- E- R?
MM: A- R.
HF: K- R- U- G- A- R.
MM: That’s right. HF: Krugar.
MM: Uh- huh.
HF: Have you ever... do you know where he lives?
MM: Uh, no.
HF: Probably deceased now.
MM: He was just… oh yes. He was an old man at that time.
HF: I see.
MM: And then I don’t remember there Ezra Tash Mead, and that’s about all I really ever remember hearin’ Dad and Mother talk about. And then there Moroni Caldwell he was a brother- in- law to dad.
HF: And Moroni was the father of Arthur.
MM: Right.
HF: Arthur Caldwell.
MM: That’s right.
HF: Now do you know who benefited from that?
MM: Well that was Granddad Hill, own project himself. That was for his own water and everything.
HF: In other words, to your knowledge, it didn’t go beyond that six hundred, that section of ground that you granddad had.
MM: No, that was what it was all for.
HF: It was Hill’s, it was his.
MM: Yeah.
HF: Do you think virtually all of that acreage was benefited by the water?
MM: No, there was some that wasn’t. There was some that was dry farmed. But they possibly three hundred twenty acres or maybe a little better that was benefited by that reservoir. HF: Because of the water being applied to the soil in that area, what crops could he grow any additionally or…
MM: Well, he was mostly on hay and grain and stuff like that you know he was a sheep man, really what he was.
HF: Was he?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. And he used to aim to raise his own feed in there. And the land and everything else right there on the place.
HF: I see. Well now that’s interesting. So, in going back then we can say as far as we know, the best information we have at this point is that dam went out in the spring of 1915.
MM: That’s correct.
HF: Do you have any— what would you say in May, April or May or June?
MM: I think it was June. It went out in June.
HF: In June of 1915.
MM: Yeah.
HF: And were— what destruction did it cause?
MM: Well it cleaned out everything Granddad Hill had had in the bottom of the canyon. And it just took out his barn, and sheep corrals. I think they had everything out of the way, all but on pig was the only thing, and well they never lost her. She came back in about three weeks with a whole litter of pigs. They don’t know how far down that water she went. But she was the only one that was really in the stream and then there was a feller name of Kruger, who was talkin’ about. He seen it comin’ and he tied his team up to some cottonwoods and run and left his team tied to cottonwoods and he ran about a quarter mile or less over onto a hill and watched it go by. Drowned his team, later they was still there in the cottonwoods after it was all over with. And that was about the only destruction of anything that was lost in it. They knew it was coming and got things out of the road.
HF: Was you grandpa’s home in the path of the flood?
MM: No, he built it up on the hill, just to the south there was kind of a ridge come down through there and he built his house up on this ridge. I think from near as I could ever remember that Grandma Hill was the one that insisted they be, the house put up there because she was afraid of the dam. And they put the house up on this hill and the rest of the buildings was all down at the bottom of the canyon, in the mouth of the canyon. HF: Be warmer down there, wouldn’t it too.
MM: Yes, there was a canyon breeze come out of there all the time in the winter.
HF: And that’s where his barn and corrals were.
MM: That’s right.
HF: But it was advanced far enough in the spring the sheep were out, probably in the mountains?
MM: That’s right.
HF: Isn’t that interesting. So as far as destruction is concerned it was pretty minimal?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. It took a lot of soil out of that, the one place that Grandma and Granddad lived, it took a lot of soil off there and left a lot of rocks. In fact it was when I was, oh, 18- 20 years old there was still rocks in there, some of them I imagine weighed 40- 50 tons that it brought down. Some of them imagined was 12- 14 feet high and maybe 10- 12 feet across that was washed down.
HF: For Pete’s sake. Well, now how did you get rid of those?
MM: Well, there was a four or five of them left there when I left there in ’ 42. And I don’t remember I think that the fellow that Dad sold the place, Dad bought the place afterwards.
HF: Your dad had it?
MM: Yeah, after Grandmother, them all died, he bought the place. And he moved everything we could move and I think that feller Dad sold to got in there dynamite and blowed them up and moved them.
HF: Now, did the impounded water, it followed the course of the stream itself as it went towards the river?
MM: That’s right.
HF: Did it cut quite a deep channel in the stream bed?
MM: It did down the canyon, but not after it got out in the valley it kind of flattened out. And it left gravel in spots, and it kind of, it was kind of, oh a ravine, or a draw you would call it to run from Pack Saddle kind of a little bit north and then when clean down to the river. And I imagine it was about a half a mile across the bottom. And I think the biggest part of the stream went down through there. And they said that when it hit the Teton River it went right across the Teton River and up the other side for a ways before it, the water run out. You can still see spots down through there where it’s washed.
HF: Can you?
MM: Yes.
HF: I see. And farming they haven’t, I mean that creek is still there isn’t it?
MM: Yes. Uh- huh.
HF: It flows water into the river.
MM: That’s right, in the spring of the year the high water will come down in there. Yes.
HF: Now, do they use that water at all now?
MM: Oh yes, uh- huh.
HF: Have they put sprinklers on there?
MM: A lot of sprinklers in there and the, in fact they water now, just the natural flow out of there I imagine about four or five hundred acres different guys you know.
HF: They just put their sprinkling system right into the creek?
MM: Yeah well or run it off into a ditch and then pump it out of the ditch. But there’s I think I’d say, there is about four outfits sprinkling out of it.
HF: Do you know who owns the old Bill Hill property now?
MM: A feller by the name of Orwell bought it.
HF: Did he?
MM: Yeah.
HF: And this is, and he passed away this spring.
MM: That’s right.
HF: Or this summer. This summer.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Harold. MM: Harold Orwell, that’s right.
HF: Harold Orwell. And is his home, he’s got a lovely big home up there, is this home in the same area as where your granddad’s was?
MM: No, Granddad’s was up on the hill to the south, maybe a hundred and fifty feet there’s a hill come down there. And Orwell built right square in the bottom of the canyon and right where his house sets there used to be a big pile of big rocks right in there.
HF: Now do you still see some rudiments maybe of the dam itself up there?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. Oh yes.
HF: You can go up there and you can tell quickly that, well gee- wiz, there must have been a dam here someday, one day.
MM: Oh yes, you can see it very plain and even the old spillway they had dug and how they had there rocks rip- wrapped on the sides you know, you look in and kind of the face where the old dam went out.
HF: Now is there a county road that goes up that way?
MM: Yes, yes. There’s a forest service road.
HF: A forest service?
MM: Yeah, it goes right to the pull within I’d say 75- 80 feet of the north side of the dam.
HF: Does that go right on up to the Pack Saddle Lake?
MM: No, no the Pack Saddle Lake would be north of there, part of the old Pack Saddle Lake.
HF: That’s quite a bit north?
MM: Yeah, it’s about I’d say a couple a miles the way a bird would fly.
HF: Okay, it’s in a different canyon then?
MM: Yes, it’s in the north fork of Pack Saddle Creek.
HF: The north fork of Pack Saddle, oh I see. Now as far as the geography is concerned in that valley, what do you have? You have the north fork of Pack Saddle, then you have the south fork?
MM: That’s right. HF: Of Pack Saddle. That’s next one to the south. And then what Horseshoe?
MM: Horseshoe Canyon comes, well they would be if you want to get right down it, there’d be, Dude Creek. And then Horseshoe Canyon.
HF: What would be beyond Horseshoe?
MM: Beyond Horseshoe?
HF: Going south.
MM: To the south would be what they called Mahogany Mountain, south of Horseshoe.
HF: Well, you have some Twin Creeks in there.
MM: Oh, Twin Creeks would have to be further on south, now I’m not really know about Twin Creeks but, it would be further on south.
HF: But Mahogany Mountain is right next to Horseshoe.
MM: Right, just south of Horseshoe, yes.
HF: Then, but Mahogany Canyon is a lot further south.
MM: Yes, Mahogany Canyon— oh wait a minute, yes Mahogany Canyon is south of Mahogany Mountain, sets just south of Horseshoe Creek.
HF: So there must be these others canyons I’m talking about before you get to Mahogany Mountain, Martin. It’s there’s North Twin, Fred Bowen and those fellows lived in that area, in those canyons. I think North Twin, Middle Twin, South Twins then you get to Mahogany.
MM: No. Mahogany sets right straight off from, your heading to— you drop into Horseshoe Canyon and then it starts right up to the…
HF: Mahogany Canyon.
MM: No, right up to Mahogany Mountain, what they call Mahogany Mountain.
HF: Mahogany Mountain.
MM: Yeah.
HF: I see.
MM: And then maybe now that’s on the other side cause I’m not to well— know what’s over I know there’s Cidron and places like that over the put some of them creeks I wouldn’t know them, I’ve never been in there to much.
HF: I see. Well, then immediately west of the dam, which would be sort of in between North and South Pack Saddle, would you have this big mountain called Fred, or called Garn’s Peak or Garn’s Mountain.
MM: Yes, there Garn Mountain is more to the south than where that is and right above the what they call the Old Reservoir, we call Pack Saddle Basin. There’s a basin up in there and the Garn Mountain was just kind of to the north or the south.
HF: South of that?
MM: Of that Pack Saddle Basin.
HF: Now, that isn’t what we call Pack Saddle Lake though is it?
MM: No, Pack Saddle Lake is north of the old Pack Saddle Reservoir.
HF: Now what is the lake, what would you, how would you describe the lake?
MM: Well, I’ll tell you what it is, it’s just as I imagined sometime it had been a old volcano or something the way it looks you know. They don’t know how deep it is in the center but, there’s an old German up there by the name of Otto Franz Rudolf, went up there and I don’t know he worked, I couldn’t tell you the years, but he worked two or three years on with a wheel barrow and built a dam in front of that. And which the dam might be 16- 18 feet high and maybe 40- 50 feet across and he but a dam and a pipe in there so that he could claim the water out of the old, out of the Pack Saddle Reservoir, or dam, or lake.
HF: Pack Saddle Lake?
MM: Yeah. But they had quite a deal with that because he had to let enough water come through to like there was 200 inches come out there the year round, he had to leave that much water come out, and he could draw over that for his share for putting in the dam.
HF: Who, where would that 200 inches or so go?
MM: Well that dumped into the south fork of Pack Saddle Creek and went on down to, on Granddad’s places there.
HF: Oh, I see. So it was the source of water for your Granddad then?
MM: Yes, uh- huh, through high water, but it didn’t, it never did amount to much. Maybe 30- 40 inches of water would come out of there.
HF: Oh, was this, was this volcanic, oh volcanic thing, how big of a caldera, how big of a mouth, how big of a thing was this across?
MM: Where the water come out?
HF: Well no where the lake was.
MM: I would say it was possibly…
HF: You know the upper rim of it.
MM: I say a quarter of a mile across it, to the north and south and maybe 300 yards east and west.
HF: I see and the banks going down to the water edge itself was steep.
MM: Yes, uh- huh right.
HF: And shaley.
MM: Yep.
HF: I remember I was there as a kid and well a young man, well, it was while I was been up there I took my boy up there one time as I remember. And boy you had to watch it or you’d just slide right off into the water.
MM: Yes, uh- huh that was on the north side.
HF: That’d been on the north side?
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: But on the south side it wouldn’t been quite that steep.
MM: No, their was kind of a hill, kind of, run up slope it wasn’t steep you know it just, oh it just gradual incline up out of there.
HF: Did anyone, have you ever seen anyone take a boat up there and…
MM: Oh yes, uh- huh. Yeah there’s been a lot of people have these boats, small boats, rubber boats and canoes and stuff up there. We used to have an old boat up there but, somebody set it on fire, we used have one that we’d put in the brush there and we’d go out in it and we used to built rafts and go out in it. But they said that, they’d measured some of it and it was 85 feet deep in the center so it had to be an old volcano or something.
HF: Fish? Any fish in there? MM: Yes, uh- huh. Pretty good fishing.
HF: What type of fish?
MM: There all trout, Mountain Trout.
HF: I see. Mountain trout.
MM: They’re small about ten inches.
HF: But it was pretty good fishing. You fished there many times?
MM: Oh yes, uh- huh.
HF: Now there were you say waters coming from that would get down into the south fork of Pack Saddle.
MM: That’s right.
HF: That’s an intriguing name, Pack Saddle. How did it, where did it have its origin?
MM: Well, now you kind of got me, I think I have this. One way, why they called it that there was just north of the lake there was a little spot up where they called Sheep Camp Basin. And the herders and that used to leave their leave sheep camp set there and that’s where they’d pick their pack saddles up and that’s where they packed out. They’d put their pack outfits on and then they’d go on and they, that’s why they called it Pack Saddle Basin. With Pack Saddle Canyon got its name from that.
HF: There was a, there was a sheep sheering, a dipping corral and sheering back in there someplace wasn’t there?
MM: It was on Mill Creek and that was run by a feller, he was a stage robber and that and their they had [ inaudible]. He was the one that robbed all them stages over in West Yellowstone, 17 of them all alone. You read that or heard that?
HF: Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s the most [ inaudible].
MM: Well, he was the one that done that.
HF: Do you remember ever seeing this man?
MM: Yes, I just do remember, I remember his wife more than I remember him. She used to take me on a horse, and I remember when I was just a little guy she’d give me an apple. And she’d give me a ride on her horse, I’ll never forget that she seemed to me that she was awfully beautiful, you know, I was just a little guy and she seemed awful beautiful. Tell you, he used to call her hun, was what they called her.
HF: Hun?
MM: Yeah.
HF: H- U- N?
MM: Yeah, that’s the only name I ever heard her called.
HF: Like honey or something like that I suppose, Hun.
MM: Yeah.
HF: Did they have a dwelling in that area, a home?
MM: Yeah, they had home there a log house there by the dipping vats.
HF: Was that to take care of the sheep as they went through that area to be put on the summer range?
MM: Well, yeah practically and he used to charge for that and that was his business. What he’d dip these sheep for ticks and stuff like that when they’d come through. He wasn’t compelled by any law to do it but, he just set that up and I guess he made pretty good money at it.
HF: In other words, the sheep would be sheered.
MM: Right.
HF: And then they would walk them through this dip.
MM: Right.
HF: And, I guess, put dip on their body?
MM: No, they completely submerge them.
HF: Completely submerge them?
MM: Yeah in this creosote.
HF: I see.
MM: It was a creosote dips what they called that, and they had a, remember they had a fork and stake and when the sheep would come through that vat they’d stick this stake on their head and shove their head under the water, under that stuff, to tell you what it looked like, just like tobacco juice is what it looked like [ chuckles] you know when they come through it and it was round about that time…
( Recording fades.)
HF: Okay, very interesting go ahead.
MM: Well they said that they kind of accused Granddaddy Hill of poking holes all through his dipping vats. And Granddad Hill, we never did know who ever done it, but Granddad always said he didn’t do it. So anyway, Granddad put in dipping vats done on his place and he’d dip the sheep. So it kind of looked it looked kind of funny like he might have had something to do with that so he could get the business, you know.
HF: Well once that was done to Ed Trafter’s place did he move away, do you think?
MM: I think he was picked up for him…
HF: For his law violations.
MM: Yeah, in 19- I had a newspaper but, I lent to a guy and I never did get it back, but in 1910 Ed Trafter was picked up for embezzling 10,000 dollars from his mother- in- law. And he was serving time in, I think a prison there in Utah, for long about that time or something along in there.
HF: But did his wife continue to live in the valley a while because she must have or you wouldn’t have known her, right?
MM: Well, yeah. She was around there quite awhile. Him and – well in fact he was only put in a year there and then he come back up there in the basin. I don’t remember whether he ever started that up again or not but it seemed like to me he did started that up. But I remember I was just a little tiny kid and always just never forgot that big red apple she gave me. [ Chuckles]
HF: Martin, do you think there’s any physical evidence up there today of that corral and sheep dip?
MM: Uh, no. Very little of it left anymore.
HF: But you know exactly about where it was.
MM: Oh, yes I could right to the exact spot.
HF: Who owns the place now? MM: Well, I’m not sure who owns that.
HF: Maybe some of the Hoops’ or…
MM: No, it’s quite a bit above the Hoops’ place. Sheryl Potter used to have a place right in there by, but I don’t know who’s, who owns that it could be even Forest Service ground where that was at.
HF: I see.
MM: It’s right on the north side of what they call Mill Creek on the road as you go in.
HF: Right.
MM: And it’s you only can see a few rocks and that around there but there’s nothing much anymore like it used to be. I remember the old log building and that used to sit there, you know, and everything and home it. That’s pretty well all gone now.
HF: Well now, you were born in 1911 and you continued to live up there until what date?
MM: Oh, I left there in ’ 32.
HF: In ’ 32.
MM: Yeah.
HF: So you would have been about 21 years of age.
MM: That’s right.
HF: And you can remember, I imagine you’ve roamed with a horse all through that country haven’t ya?
MM: Oh yes. I’ve rode for years in there, I rode through it one winter here with the cattle association and I was with the, I used to go out and move camp with sheep herders, you know, for years in there, well about four years. And I farmed in there and well I just, I just kind of a little run around I guess on the deal up there. In fact, I could draw you a picture of pretty near every creek in them mountains.
HF: On the west side?
MM: On the west side, yeah.
HF: You can get up there and see some of the valley out here too, can’t ya?
MM: Oh yes.
HF: In those high mountains.
MM: Oh yeah you get up on the, up there where that radar stud and radio equipment is you can see down in here.
HF: And on further south where they have the, you know where Elk Flat is?
MM: Right.
HF: And in that area they have another lookout station.
MM: Yeah.
HF: For fire purposes.
MM: Yeah, but you can’t see this much down in here it kind of covers this area up, you know the mountains a bit further back over on what they call Elk Flat and all out through there. So you can go from Elk Flat and drop right back in here Highs. Come back over there with your Thousand Springs Valley and down in that way into Highs.
HF: Can ya?
MM: Yes.
HF: How many miles would that be?
MM: From, in Teton, you mean down here?
HF: Uh- huh.
MM: Oh I’d say, rough guess about 40- 45 miles.
HF: From Highs to Elk Creek?
MM: No it’s about, oh, I think it’s 22 miles or something like that. And it’s 17 miles from the mouth of Horse Shoe Canyon up to Elk Flats, the other way in from Teton Basin.
HF: Is it?
MM: Yeah.
HF: Would you go in from Horseshoe, mouth of Horseshoe you saying, to Elk Creek about 17 miles.
MM: Well, it might be a little further that that I imagine it be another 4- 5 miles from that way but, you see you go up right up past what they used to, where Granddad Hill had his old coal mine what was known as a Superior. That was…
HF: Now was that you Granddad Hill’s?
MM: Yeah, he had a coal mine, that would be just south of the Brown Bear, over kind of a little ridge of mountains in there. He had a mine there and you went past that then you come on up to Elk Flat – the 17 miles from there to Elk Flat.
HF: Did he operate that for a few years? That Superior vein?
MM: I really don’t know how long he was in there, but it was quite a while he had men working in there. I’ve heard mother say that they was colt’s born down there that had never seen daylight.
HF: Was, did he have quite a tunnel going right straight down and quite a shaft?
MM: Yes, yes, uh- huh. I never did hear how far down it was but from the way Mother used to talk they’d take their horses down in a carriage, whatever it was, you know a tram to let them down into the bottom and they used them to pull the coal cars out with. And some of them horses would stay down there all the time.
HF: For crying out loud. Did you ever do any mining in the area of coal?
MM: Well, a little bit yes.
HF: Did you ever haul any coal out?
MM: Yes.
HF: With a wagon?
MM: I had to haul quite a lot coal wagons out of there.
HF: Do you remember as a kid that they used quite a bit of that coal to heat their homes?
MM: Well, we used to haul to schools a lot. We used to get fifty cents a ton to haul is to school, and we’d haul about a ton and half the load [ Laughs] out of those minds up there. Out of the Brown Bear and the Pinter Mind and the Mickelson Mine and…
HF: It was kind of a slack coal, wasn’t it?
MM: Yeah, it was a slack, yeah it was kind of a soft coal.
HF: Very, very you didn’t get very many big lumps? MM: Well, occasionally you get some good lumps out of it but they wouldn’t stand up, you’d leave them out in the air awhile and they’d break into slack coal.
HF: Quite a lot of fly ash and stuff. Lot of other debris in there mixed with it rock and other stuff, wasn’t there?
MM: No, no it was clear coal. The only thing that I saw was that it wasn’t deep enough, the mines wasn’t deep enough.
HF: To harden it up?
MM: Yeah. The Brown Bear they used to get some pretty good coal out of that, course it went clean back under that Garn Mountain, that mine did.
HF: Well I appreciate your visit here this morning. Was there ever a post office over there on the west side of the river?
MM: Yes, we used to call it Oasis. Mother was post master there.
HF: And your mother’s name again was?
MM: Mary Ann.
HF: Mary Ann Hill, and she was the Post Master.
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Did they have a stage coach stop there?
MM: Yes, all it is a stage coach and sometimes it was brought it in by pony. Fom what my mother always used to say that’s where most all those desperados and guys would come and get their mail. And I’ve heard Grandmother talk about them, they’d come in there, there was four or five of them come in there and started chopping her corral fence down to build a fire and cook something to eat and she ran them off with a garden rake and she was just that was she would fight anybody with anything she had in her hand, she used a garden rake on him. [ Hearty Laugh]
HF: Where did they cross the river?
MM: Oh they can cross the river anywhere.
HF: But they had to ford it didn’t they?
MM: Yeah, they’d had to ford it.
HF: So, there wasn’t a bridge at that time?
MM: No, they used to ford right down where they called the, Bill Breckenridge place there was a ford in there, then there was another one up around the, what they called the Gilbert’s place there was one up in there.
HF: That’s little bit south wasn’t it, up the stream a little bit?
MM: Yeah, uh- huh.
HF: But they didn’t build the bridge there at Harrop’s Hill for quite a few years after that did they?
MM: No, I don’t know really when they built that I never did know when they built the first bridge there, but I help put the second one in.
HF: In that place?
MM: Yeah.
HF: Now didn’t they have other bridges up the stream from that, prior to that time?
MM: Yes, they had, I think there was four above there. There was one used to cross there by an old fellow name of Quinn Hall, then there was a beach bridge that was above that, and then there was another one above it but I never did know what it was. There was just kind of a flimsy bridge, we crossed in a team and wagon or a team and buggy.
HF: About the time you were born and a little bit later all that country was part of Fremont County, you know, all part of Fremont County and they had to go to St. Anthony to transact their little business etcetera.
MM: Yeah, that’s right.
HF: And I imagine as a kid you can remember them, you have to go out to St. Anthony to get your milling done.
MM: Yeah, we used to haul grain and I remember coming with Dad, hauling grain, it was in I don’t remember there was a lot of snow, it seemed like a lot to me. And we loaded up grain and left out of there and we stayed in Canyon Creek the first night and we slept in a barn on the hay.
( End of Track 1)
HF: Side two continuing the interview with Mr. Martin Mickelsen, on the first of November 1980. Okay you were telling about your first night at Canyon Creek.
MM: Yeah, we I remember the next morning Dad got up and built a bonfire and cooked breakfast and I sat on the wagon tongue and had breakfast and it just seemed so cold and there was snow and we pulled up on the hill and then Dad had to go back and hook onto Uncle John to help him pull his load up the hill. And we come into St. Anthony to stay there and I remember Dad showing me old Brink— oh, Brockman, I believe was the sheriff’s name there in St. Anthony. We stayed all night in a hotel there and the next day Dad bought groceries and went back home and it was two days going back home. It would take us four days to make the trip. And I remember we got back home and, oh how nice it was to be home! I’ll never forget that.
HF: Now did you go down through what they call Hog Holler?
MM: No, we came down what they call the Buyer Man Lane.
HF: Buyer Man Lane, was that in the area of New Dale?
MM: Yes, we come into Teton then down through New Dale and across to St. Anthony.
HF: You had to cross the river?
MM: Yeah, there was I remember there was quite a rickety bridge I was scared of it but, we went across and we sold that grain. I did have the slips on it and Dad sold some oats and got 23 cents a bushel. I used to have the weigh bills on that, but he got 23 cents a bushel for them some oats he sold down there. And I don’t ever know what happened to those weigh bills on those oats.
HF: Let’s see, now this could have been about 1915.
MM: Yeah somewhere, ‘ 16 along in there.
HF: Along in there, now Madison— of course Teton County— it became a county seat but they didn’t have much their I think they were still hauling a lot of their and so forth still out to St. Anthony after Teton County was formed.
MM: Yeah, we did, that’s right.
HF: And you could have been a young lad.
MM: Possibly five or something like that, four or five. I remember Dad uses to roll me up in a big bear skin coast he had and set me beside him between some sacks so I would be warm. [ Laughs]
HF: You’re a good sized man was your dad about the same size?
MM: Yes, Dad was about the same size that I am.
HF: How about your Grandpa Hill?
MM: Well, he was a pretty husky fellow.
HF: Was he?
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Did he have quite a few children?
MM: I think there was seven, as near as I can remember, I was trying to figure it up the other day and I think there was seven.
HF: And John was one of them.
MM: Yeah.
HF: Was your mother one of the older ones?
MM: Mother was the youngest of the family and Dad he was the youngest in there family.
HF: Now was your grandpa quite an elderly man when he passed away?
MM: Oh, I’m not sure just it seemed like to me that he was, seemed like to me that I heard Mother say he was 62 or something like that.
HF: Were they both buried, now his name was Bill— Bill Hill— he and his wife, your grandparents, are both buried there in the valley?
MM: Yeah, at Hayden’s.
HF: At Hayden, Hayden’s Cemetery. Breckenridge was neighbors to you I guess, but across the river weren’t they?
MM: Yeah they lived on the east side of the river, but at one time they was practically you might say they was neighbors to us, yes.
HF: Well, you know at recent date they built what they call the Pack Saddle Estates, do you know where those are?
MM: Yeah, we used to own that one place when— what they call Pack Saddle Estates now— I think Dad bought that for fifty dollars for taxes and then he turned back cause we couldn’t make nothing on it, it was high on the hill, you know.
HF: Was that north and west of…
MM: No, that was kind of west. It was on the south side of Pack Saddle Canyon.
HF: On the south side, but it was west of the 640 acres that your grandpa had?
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Did your dad continue to farm a lot of that ground?
MM: Yes, well with the 160, then Dad homesteaded that 160. Then he bought 160 from Grandmother Hill after Granddad died that was in ’ 20—’ 21, I’m pretty sure it was. It was either ’ 20 or ’ 21.
HF: Did he have quite a family, your dad?
MM: Yes, there was eleven of us.
HF: Eleven children?
MM: Yes.
HF: Where do you fit it?
MM: I’m the 2nd from the top— one sister older than I am.
HF: The one up in Montana?
MM: Yeah.
HF: Now Mary Lou Hill McKenna, where does she fit in?
MM: Oh, she’s about 2nd— 3rd.
HF: From the youngest?
MM: Yeah. Yeah there’d be Lois June and then Dean then Mary Lou.
HF: Well that’s very, very interesting. Now you people are also related to the Latham’s aren’t you in someway.
MM: Someway, but I don’t know just how much I never did know that for sure, but we’re related someway.
HF: You related to the Moffat’s?
MM: We’re related to the Moffat’s and the Mickel’s and…
HF: Mickel’s, that’s Robert Mickel.
MM: Well, we’re some relation to him, but I don’t know where it comes in at or anything.
HF: Now Lloyd Mickelsen is…
MM: He would be our 2nd cousin.
HF: Your 2nd cousin?
MM: Yes.
HF: That’s very interesting. Well I appreciate this visit with you, I’m sure that we could go and have you tell us a lot about that country Pack Saddle drainage area, probably do a lot of hunting in there.
MM: Yeah, I know where, you might say every inch of it pretty near. In fact, there has been some streams up there I’ve even named and they’ve carried, and the Forest Service’s got names on them now.
HF: For example?
MM: Well, there was what we called Buffalo Head Springs. I found an old buffalo head in there and I hung it up and wrote on a tree, you know just carved in Buffalo Springs and I was up there a year or two ago and there was a sign there, Buffalo Springs. [ Laughs]
HF: Now where would that be?
MM: That would be back there in the old Brown Bear Coal Mine, up in there.
HF: That would be south of Pack Saddle. A lot of elk and deer taken out of there, are there?
MM: Not too many, it’s pretty rugged country down there. But there used to be a lot a deer taken out of there I’ve taken an awful lot of deer and elk out of there. But, I don’t know, it’s kind of like the rest of us going down hill. I never even went up this year.
HF: Has the Forest Service made some pretty good trails through that country?
MM: Oh I don’t think so. I don’t think they’ve done anything much for trails for, when we had that…
HF: C. C.
MM: Yeah the C. C.
HF: Conservation Service. MM: They built a lot of roads and trails in there, but I think they’ve, well the Forest Service had others things to do and just couldn’t handle that anymore.
HF: Can you get up there at Garn’s Mountain with a jeep?
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: You can drive up there with a jeep?
MM: I was up there last year, I took up a bunch of radio equipment up there, oh it was— we had quite a lot of snow, but I took one of those snow cats and went in. The county had one and we took that and went up there and took up some stuff and put it in for the sheriff’s department in St. Anthony. We drove right up to the building there.
HF: Do you know what the elevation is?
MM: No I really don’t, I never did hear what it was.
HF: Incidentally, did you ever hear about this Pack Saddle Dam, the worth of it, the value of it? What it maybe had cost your grandpa to put that in?
MM: Yes I heard that very plain. It was 2,000 dollars to put that in.
HF: And that of course would be for wages…
MM: Wages and then their time and what he paid out.
HF: And they did all that with horses and Fresno’s and…
MM: Slip scrappers mostly, there’s still some of them up there.
HF: And I imagine they had to some blasting.
MM: I don’t know if they done any blasting or not I never did hear them say. But it looks like, to me, they just filled it with that shale rock and cribbed it up with that the way it looks, from the way it’s built it looks like on the maybe on the very top it might be six, eight feet wide, but it looks like they put shale rock kind of riff wrapped and then in the center was filled with dirt or that kind of a clay that’s there.
HF: Do you think there were ever any cement or anything like that put into it?
MM: Not that I, only maybe a little bit on that the big culvert that went through it would be the only place. But there was nothing anywhere else on it. It was all dirt and that shale rock.
HF: There was a culvert that brought your water out? MM: Yes, uh- huh, kind of a big culvert in there.
HF: Right in the center spillway?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. No it was right in the bottom of the dam.
HF: Right in the bottom?
MM: Yes, uh- huh. And they had a kind of a wood bin that was fixed up and I remember it looked like some of these parts a windmill sets on, only it was made out of wood and they had a wheel up on top that they’d turn and I can remember that.
HF: And what was that for?
MM: To let the water out or close that head gate of that culvert that went shut, or open it up for more water. There was planks that went out onto it and then you got out on there and turned that wheel and it pulled that— a long rod went down from this here gate down through the water so you can pull that head gate up in the front of the culvert.
HF: How, do you have any idea how tall that bridgework could’ve been?
MM: Oh, I would say, just a rough guess, about— it might be 40 feet if you measured straight up.
HF: And how thick do you think?
MM: Well, it was maybe 30- 40 feet on the bottom and looked like maybe six on top.
HF: Pretty good sized structure wasn’t it?
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: Imagine that in the final analysis they would have to do quite a lot of pick and shovel tamping that soil down in…
MM: They drove over it a lot with their horses and that, yes.
HF: Did they?
MM: Uh- huh. As they put the dirt on they just kept driving over it. They kind of went in a circle. What Dad always told me they kind of went in a circle there on that.
HF: Well that attests to the ingenuity and to the pioneer spirit of our pioneers.
MM: That’s right. HF: That they didn’t have to ask government to get out there and help them. They took the bull by the horns, as it were, and organized themselves and used their own ingenuity and know- how and got the job done.
MM: Yeah, it was quite a project for just a bunch of dumb farmers, you might say what they was, you know, they was smart men. But they’d know very little education or anything like that you know. But the way they built it, it would have been all right if they had kept that spillway open so the water would have went out when it got to plum full. There used to be trees, I remember after it went out, there used to be some old dead trees out in there and you could see the water mark way up near the top of them they was out in the lake there.
HF: Have you ever heard talk about maybe putting another one in there?
MM: I don’t think they ever will. There’s really not enough people below it now anymore, you know, that fools anything like that.
HF: Did they, of course Harold Orwell who bought that place, I imagine he sprinkles…
MM: Yes, uh- huh.
HF: That he takes his water out of the creek.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
HF: Well, thank you so much.
MM: Okay, sir and I’ll get on home and pick up Mother.