Beatrice Papke Interview

              Dr. Radke- Moss Women‟ s Oral History Collection
Beatrice Papke
By Beatrice Papke
Winter 2008
Box 5 Folder 14
Oral Interview conducted by Ky Papke
Transcript copied by Ky Papke Winter 2008
Brigham Young University- Idaho
2
Beatrice Papke: I am Beatrice Papke, my maiden name was Frank. I was born on the 21st of May, 1929 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ky Papke: Who were your parents? BP: Helen Elizabeth Halladay and Lester Ernest Frank KP: How many brothers and sisters did you have? BP: I have one sister who is six years younger than I am. KP: And that‟ s it? BP: That‟ s it. KP: Did your mother have any miscarriages? BP: No. KP: None? BP: None. Because she was a nurse and father was a pharmacist. And she had hermetic fever when she was in nursing school and so she had to drop out for a little while and she went back and she was an RN. We lived above my dad‟ s drug store in Milwaukee and then when the depression came really bad he lost his drug store. So then we went down to Waukesha, where his father and mother lived and his sister and brother. And then he opened he went to work for his father who opened a furniture store. And that‟ s what he did for the rest of his life, except he worked at pharmacies of a friend of his every weekend. Saturday and Sunday. KP: Alright I want to talk about your childhood. Let‟ s just start with where did you go to elementary school, do you remember? BP: In Waukesha. KP: In Waukesha? BP: Yeah, I think it was McCoy Elementary School and then the high school was right next to it. And I went to over to Randall‟ s school for I went into kindergarten at one a different school then first grade I went to Randall‟ s school all the way up through six grade. And then we went to Junior high school which is was downtown kind of and then that was right behind Waukesha high school. I went to junior high for seventh and eighth grade and or no then we had a separate building for ninth grade and that had a pool in it so we got to take swimming. Then I went to the high school for 10, 11, and 12th. 3
KP: Ok, were your teachers in elementary school mostly women or did you have men teachers? BP: Mostly women. KP: Mostly all women. And do you remember the atmosphere of the school, was it very strict. BP: Well back then things were much stricter, then they are now. KP: Well that‟ s what we want to know. BP: And you didn‟ t run in the halls, you did not talk in the classes unless you were called upon, we had lockers, we each hung our coats up and stuff. And uh, I don‟ t remember having homework in elementary school, but we sure did in junior high and from then up. KP: Do you remember any stories from elementary school even if they are something random, just anything, do you ever remember disciplinary actions by your teachers towards other students? BP: No I don‟ t remember much about that, so it couldn‟ t have been too bad. KP: Did you like recess? Was it your favorite subject? BP: No I liked reading and I liked history, but I did not like math. Never did. But I had an A in algebra. I still don‟ t know how I did that yet. KP: And so you said your sister was six years younger than you right, so she came into the elementary school right after you left. BP: Right after I left, yeah. I was at the school and out of the different buildings when she started, which was a good thing because we didn‟ t get along too well. KP: You didn‟ t? I was just going to ask you about your relationship when you were kids.
BP: While she was going into dolls, I was going out of dolls, I was going into dating and she hadn‟ t gotten there yet. I guess we remember we shared a great big bedroom and my friend and I got together one day and took cement blocks and built a wall each half framed you know from the one wall to the other wall so that she couldn‟ t get in my room and I couldn‟ t get in hers without going out the door and coming back in. And she was very upset about that. And we had a house; mom and dad never owned a house until I was in college, but we had this one house which I built this wall in the bedroom had a small porch in the back. I don‟ t remember what we called it, I called it my sleeping porch because I put my bed out their finally. I figured I would rather freeze in the winter and be comfortable, then to share the room with my sister. And then we had storage space you could run up in the hall upstairs where the bedrooms were and then there was door and you had to step off really high and there was a room in their and that was my 4
hiding room. I had all my secrets in there, was just very nice, I could be all by myself. I wouldn‟ t allow my sister in there. KP: What did you do in there? BP: I don‟ t remember. KP: Don‟ t remember, but it was secret? BP: Yeah, it couldn‟ t have been too great! KP: Now, what was, and we‟ ll talk about this in each stage of your life, what was your atmosphere like at home when you were a child? Were your parents loving, very strict? BP: My mother was very strict. My dad and I got along well, my mother and my sister got along well. And mom worked once in awhile as a special duty nurse, she‟ d go in at night a lot of times and worked with friends. Her friends had someone who was in the hospital who needed special nursing care they would hire her and she would go in and be his or her nurse until they got better. But she usually worked at night so she would be home when we got home from school and to get us ready in the morning. I had good parents. They taught me all about the Lord and they went to church and dad and I sang in the church choir. Didn‟ t have a lot of money, but in those days we didn‟ t know anybody that did. I can remember when I was about eleven or twelve one of the houses we rented we had the neighbors next door he worked for Swift Meat Company and they were fairly well to do and she had a daughter who was two years older than I was and she would bring a whole big bag of clothes over every once in awhile that Norma had outgrown. That was just like Christmas. I just love it, I don‟ t think I ever had new clothes. But they were new to me and I liked them. My sister would not wear them. KP: She wouldn‟ t? BP: No, no way. Throw them away. KP: So do you remember a specific time or a story maybe that would illustrate your mother being stricter than your father, during your childhood? BP: I would have to think about that. KP: Ok. BP: I remember one time I don‟ t know what I did but I must have done something terrible because my mother took here high heeled shoes and she spanked me with her high heels and boy I can still remember how that hurt. And my dad was so angry when he got home he told her off. KP: He was mad at your mom? 5
BP: Yeah, I don‟ t remember my sister ever getting spanked while I did more than once. I think that I just rebelled a lot. KP: And it was your mother who did the disciplining in the house? BP: Yeah, dad wasn‟ t home very much, their furniture store was open from 9 to 5: 30 or six and all day Saturday. Sunday, of course , everything was closed back then, nobody worked on Sunday, and we always went to church. Sundays were a nice quiet day, we enjoyed it we had choir. KP: Do you remember your parents ever reading the bible to you as a child? BP: They read Bible stories to us, they didn‟ t read out of the bible, but we had a nice… still but I don‟ t think I have it anymore, they had a Ingramyers Bible story book and it was about that thick ( illustrated the width of about 3 inches) and all the favorite Bible stories were in there. I used it with our kids, and with our moving around I don‟ t know what happened to it. It has disappeared. KP: Do you remember reading about those stories with your family together? BP: It was quite often. At least I am sure it was at least every Sunday night. KP: Do you remember as a child, you were religious, remember going to church, and what church did you go to? BP: St Luke‟ s Lutheran church in Waukesha. KP: And what was that like as a child, do you remember, your feelings? BP: I went to Sunday school, in those days we didn‟ t go to church, we went to Sunday school. And mom and dad went to church while we were in Sunday school, because they didn‟ t want kids in church because it had to be quiet. KP: It had to be real quiet— although some churches still do that they have the daycare for the kids. BP: And went to confirmation class, for two years. KP: How old were you when you did that? BP: You had to be twelve and when you‟ re fourteen when you get confirmed. So, you learn all about the different the beliefs and why and where for and how to and stuff of the Lutheran faith. KP: And you were baptized as a baby right? 6
BP: Right, yeah. KP: And do you still have the dress you were christened in? BP: No. KP: Was that a big deal to keep those things? BP: I don‟ t think it was back then. I don‟ t think my sister even had the same dress. I had the same one for my kids, for each one of the them, because they were baptized as baby‟ s too until we joined the LDS church, and they were all born before that. So that‟ s what I handed down to my grandkids. You kids were all baptized in that. Jill‟ s got it. She was going to have it framed; I don‟ t know if she ever did or not. But religion and church was always a big part of my life. KP: And we will talk about that in a little bit. What if you had to ask or answer the question how did you know you were poor during the depression how would you answer that question? How did you know you were poor? BP: I don‟ t imagine back then I probably did know too much. It‟ s just from looking back. But I know I always had used clothes too wear and not a lot. And we didn‟ t always have a lot of food. They had worked for his father and mother worked as a nurse, whenever she could, as long as their was someone to take care of us. The depression was kind of when I was quite small from 1930 up to 1935 so, I‟ m terrible, my sister has a beautiful memory, she can remember everything from the day she was born, and I don‟ t know I am still that way. Things I enjoy, things I do things but evidentially don‟ t retain them. KP: Do you remember being more fortunate than other people? BP: No, not really. KP: Did you imagine that Norma was more fortunate than you? BP: Yes. They had more than we did and they were very nice people and shared. KP: But there wasn‟ t very many families like that? BP: No, and I can still remember I had a bicycle or tricycle one Christmas and I was so surprised. I think I was about seven or eighth, and that‟ s the only Christmas present I remember getting, we had stockings , we always had our stockings, oranges and apples but not much candy, as I got older it got better, but that it didn‟ t hurt me, I made it. KP: Before we leave your childhood I just wanted to ask you one more thing and maybe you can do this, can you illustrate an average day from start to finish in elementary school what time you went to school, how you got to school? 7
BP: I walked to school Monday thru Friday. We started at 8: 30 am, we were through at 3: 30 pm. We had I think an half an hour or hour for lunch. I always took my lunch didn‟ t have time to go home, but I walked I never took a school bus even through high school, and I lived a mile and a half from school in high school. I don‟ know how far I lived when I went to grade school, but I know it was quite a ways. KP: What would you do during the day, sit there and be lectured? BP: Oh no. We would draw, we would have in our class reading class, math class, history class. We had just one teacher for each grade. You were in a country school. That was a whole different ball game. But no, we had one teacher for each grade for each room. KP: She would teach all the subjects to you? BP: Yes, we never changed. That happened when I got to junior high school, then I did. KP: Then you had different teachers for different subjects? BP: For each subject, yeah. KP: Let‟ s just talk about your adolescence. Do you know your junior high days or your high school days? If there is one thing that you remember from that time, does anything stick out to you. BP: Yeah because I was in rumadics and I loved it. I think that was from ninth grade on and… KP: You were in drama? BP: Yes, and I started out just in the drama class and Ms. Right was our teacher I can still remember her. I was in plays and were would put plays on Saturdays for children for young theatre, and then the kids would come and that was fun. We would do all different fairy tales, and then when I got in high school, my sophomore year, I was still in plays and then my junior and senior year I directed plays. I was in a couple but I directed most of them, and I had two letters in drama from high school KP: Do you remember any specific play and role that you played, that you like especially? BP: Yeah… Oh no it‟ s gone. It may come back to me. If it comes back I will yell at you. I don‟ t remember, I just thoroughly enjoyed drama and I like history and I took Latin, which was a bear. Grace Ferrety was our teacher and she was a good teacher but I hated it. But you had to have it back then to get into college. So I took two years of it and I got into college, and then I was in choir and I loved English. Ms. Toms was my English teacher and she was really good. KP: And even in high school you had mostly women teachers? 8
BP: Yeah but we had a few men. For history I think I had a man. I had a Mr. Wheeler for something I don‟ t remember what. But most of them were women. And we had very few minorities they were almost all white and I had boyfriends. KP: Do you remember your first boyfriend? BP: Yeah. My first one I had… we were up at the lake with my parents… KP: What lake is that? BP: I don‟ t remember the lake, but I remember his name; it was Larry. He and I had just had good times together. I went home and he went home and we never heard from him again. Then in high school I went with Al Lyston for a while, and then I think for my sophomore year up I went with David Miller and we went quite steady and he was into boy scouts. He loved the boy scouts. KP: So what was it a big deal to have a boyfriend in high school? BP: Yes, and we were very clicky in high school. KP: You were? BP: Very. I was lucky I guess I was accepted in two clicks, but one more than the other. KP: What were those clicks? BP: The rich kids, and the mediocre kids. The farm boys and girls. I was in the middle and the upper one. But I liked a lot of the farm kids. I could have cared less about… KP: But you definitely noticed the divisions? BP: Oh yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing we had our 25th reunion, 50 reunion, no must have been 25th or 30th about two, three, five years ago when I went back to Wisconsin because I was anxious to see everybody. Well I met David who I dated and his wife very nice. I met Al and his wife which was very nice, and Charly Linch who was a friend, a boy in quotation marks “ friend,” not a boyfriend of mine and a lot of my girlfriends. But they were still in the same clicks as we were in high school and I was thinkers geepers after all these years we ought be able to spread around a little. They didn‟ t so I am not going back to the next one. But it was David who was really into and he went into boy scouts and that‟ s when we broke up because every time we ever dated on the weekend or something, wham the boy scouts would call and they would have their jamboree or something someplace and he would always go and that came first. So I got sick of it and I said, “ Ok that‟ s it.” And that‟ s when I went to work for my husband. Who was not my husband then. 9
KP: If you could describe just really briefly your relationship back then, were the men very domineering, did they have expectations of you, did they open the door for you, were they gentlemen? BP: They were very much gentlemen, of course opened the door, pulled out the chair, opened the car door. KP: Did they treat you as an equal? BP: I think so. I don‟ t remember ever being downloaded or down trodden with them. Ones I ran with anyways had a good relationship. We just had a good time. We didn‟ t drink or smoke. We usually went in groups, although by the time I was a junior and senior we would go out separately or you know as a couple. I went to both proms and David used to go up to the boy scout camp on Long Lake in Wisconsin and work all summer and he would come home once and a while. And he and his mom and dad and he and his brother and I would go up and spend a couple days and then we would come back home. But no I don‟ t remember any man thinking that he was holier than thou. We just had good times together, and I mean we were worried about necking, now a days they don‟ t even worry about much of anything. KP: So during this time where you lived were there any black people in your high school? BP: Yes, there were many blacks. KP: Could you count them on one hand? BP: Oh yeah, there weren‟ t very many. I don‟ t remember any, we must have had some Mexicans „ cause Waukesha always had a Mexican area, but the majority were Caucasian. KP: German descent? BP: Yeah and I remember when I was in high school, when the war ended, the second world war, yeah, don‟ t get me in the second world war or I‟ ll hit yah. We were let out of school and their was a train station not far from school and all the service men who were coming home came on the train so we went and met them and that was a big day, a real big day. KP: What was it like at the train station? BP: Well a little bit noisy. A lot of people and a lot of people. KP: Was their an essence of excitement? BP: You bet! KP: Relief? The war was over. 10
BP: Yeah! They all marched right down the street, a lot of singing and shouting and thanking the Lord, just happiness. KP: I wanted to ask you this because most Wisconsin people come from ancestry of German descent and the WWII was fought with Germany, so do you specifically remember any talk about that, or anything like that? BP: No, the only thing I remember was everybody was glad that we went to war and that we get the Germans. KP: And that we would beat them. BP: Yeah. KP: So you don‟ t remember any anti- American? BP: No, I do remember the Japanese being taken and put in housing, special housing. KP: Concentration camps? BP: Yeah. KP: How did you feel about that, do you remember how you felt about that? BP: Yeah, I felt terrible because it was not their fault that their mother country did such a dastardly deed. KP: And most of them were Americans, they were not Japanese. BP: Yeah, right. They had been over here for quite a while. I did know a couple oriental in high school and they were very nice people. But they didn‟ t have a choice, they had to go. I remember rationing. I didn‟ t have pair of silk stockings for I don‟ t know how many years, but then the nylon came in, and sugar was always rationed and coffee. KP: And how was it rationed? Was it grocery stores that would do it? BP: Yeah, it was groceries. You got a book with stamps in it and each stamp was worth so many points and you had to use whatever how many points on the item you wanted to buy. They took the stamps out of your book and you only got those I don‟ t remember how often they got „ em. KP: The books? 11
BP: Yeah, but they had to last quite a while, and when they were gone you just didn‟ t get anything. KP: So you couldn‟ t get groceries at the store. So you didn‟ t use money at the stores? BP: Oh Yeah. KP: You did? BP: Still buy groceries, but sugar and coffee and tea. KP: Flour? BP: I don‟ t remember flour being rationed, there was just specific items. KP: Items that you couldn‟ t buy? BP: Right, that you couldn‟ t buy, without your books. KP: And you get those distributed by the county? BP: Yeah the government, I think, send them to you. KP: Ok now let‟ s talk about your college. First before I ask you were you went, was it very common for a girl to go to college? BP: Oh yeah. KP: In the late forties? BP: Not as common as it is now, but it certainly was common. KP: Did a lot of your girlfriends from high school go on to college? BP: I was say about 25 percent. KP: And a lot of your girlfriends probably got married after high school? BP: No, a lot of them went to work as secretaries or clerks, you know, and some went to the University of Wisconsin in Madison „ cause that wasn‟ t as expensive. Mom and dad wanted, insisted that I go to college. KP: And where did you go? BP: Carroll College in Waukesha. 12
KP: Which is a private Presbyterian college? BP: Yeah. Some of my girlfriends went there too, so it was kind of fun. I, at least, knew a few people. It is very large now, but not that big then. I joined a sorority, Delpha Zeta, and they did a lot of good things. I took tennis. And David went to Carroll college with me. And so we were still dating and then I decided I had to go to work so I could earn some money to pay for my way. So I went down to the Enterprise department store and asked for Roy Papke, who was the manager. He hired me and I worked in the handbag and jewelry department and then David and I broke up and all of the sudden he ( Roy) asked me for a date to a hockey game, which was nice, I had never been to a hockey game, and then we went… KP: Was it a college hockey game? BP: No it was in Milwaukee. I mean he is eight years older than I, he was well situated than I. We went there and then about three months, maybe two months, later we went to a Packers game. And then in December I got a cedar chest for Christmas and then in February he just looked at me and said, “ You will marry me won‟ t you?” That was my… KP: That was his proposal? BP: … Proposal so I said, “ Sure!” So we got married May 25, 1949. KP: Now you mentioned that you came from a middle class or even maybe upper middle class family and Roy came from a farm family, was there any for your parents or your friends, was there any class… BP: No, none of that. KP: Animosity? BP: No, they were all happy because of my mother and that was not a class thing. She thought he was too old for me. And he was very strong willed and so was my mother, so they didn‟ t get along too well. But no I don‟ t remember anything like that. KP: Was there a lot of black kids at Carroll College? BP: I don‟ t remember any. KP: Was it taboo in high school, you mentioned there was handful of black people, did they date the whites? BP: No, they didn‟ t. I was friend to a couple and we enjoyed being with each other. They never dated anybody that was not black. 13
KP: Do you remember any racial slurs every being said to them in school? BP: No, I don‟ t remember. KP: Any disrespect towards them? BP: No, I think that all came later, sad to say. Yeah. But no I enjoyed high school, and I worked from ninth grade all the way through the time I married him ( Roy). But I worked at a beauty parlor in ninth grade cleaning up after they got through at night. And then I was in eleventh and twelfth I worked in a drug store as a soda jerk. KP: What did a soda jerk do? BP: Behind the counter and I made sundaes and malted milks and milkshakes and made the hot chocolate or hot fudge sauce and kept everything clean and worked until nine o‟ clock at night. And then I walked home about five blocks from were I lived. KP: What did you do with your earnings? BP: Went to college and had a little spending money. KP: What were the expectations, maybe not just for you, for women in general between the thirties and up to the fifties when you went to college? What were the expectations for a woman? BP: Well if you didn‟ t have a college education you might as well forget it, and most women were very happy to be mothers and being home and get married and stay home and raise their kids. Even after I had two years of college and got married and I don‟ t know if I could have done anything with my education or not I really didn‟ t care „ cause I wanted to be a mom. KP: And what were you studying at Carroll College to be? BP: Just a teacher I guess. But just very normal and regular classes the first two years, just general stuff. KP: What were most girls doing? BP: The same thing. They were either going to be teachers or nurses, but most of them were going to be teachers, because I think the first year some of them did come and then they went on to nursing school. But you had to go to a regular nursing school in order to be a nurse. KP: Let‟ s fast forward a bit. Can you give me a date for your marriage? BP: Yeah, May 25, 1949. 14
KP: Where were you and Roy married? BP: In St. Luke‟ s Lutheran church. KP: In Waukesha? BP: Yah. KP: The same place you grew up and went to church your whole life? BP: Yeah, we both went to church there all the while. KP: Roy still worked at the department store? BP: Yeah, Roy still worked at the department store, and then I went to work there too because I didn‟ t have any reason to stay home, so I just kept working . And then I got pregnant and then I was sicker than a dog while I was pregnant and I ended up in the hospital in December „ cause I had lost 20 lbs. I couldn‟ t keep anything down. So they put me in the hospital and while I was there my Grandpa Frank had a stroke and he was upstairs and he passed away and the doctor would not even let me out of the hospital to go to his funeral. So then when I finally got out of the hospital I went back and could at least eat, so I went back to work for a little bit. We lived in an upstairs apartment, in a duplex. I can still remember one night when we walked in the door and the people down stairs must have made beef stew, and I was so sick by the time I got up to the top of the stairs and I couldn‟ t eat beef stew for the next fifteen years. I finally got over it but it took a while. When our first daughter was born in July of 1949 ( later correctly said 1950) Gail was born. KP: And then Gary was Born? BP: Gary was born in 1950. KP: Then Jill? BP: No must have been 1951. Let me think. We were married in 1949 in May and Gail was born in July in 1950 and Gary was born eighteen months later, so it had to have been 1951. He was born in January. KP: Of 1952? BP: Yeah of 1952 and then we went and we had... KP: And this is all while you are in Waukesha? 15
BP: Yeah those two were born in Waukesha and then after I was pregnant with Gail and looking for a house to buy and we couldn‟ t afford a lot, but there was this one house that had been built as a model home and it was in a really nice neighborhood, not to far from our folks. So we made an appointment to go look at it, it was a very reasonable price and we couldn‟ t figure out why, till we opened the front door and walked in and we knew why. They had six puppies running around, the carpet was just full of urine stains and smell and then we walked in there was two bedrooms and a bathroom and a living area and a kitchen. We went to go downstairs and their was dirty diapers from the floor of the basement at the bottom of the steps to the top of the ceiling of the basement and smell, uhh!!!. So anyway we made an offer on it and they took it, so now we had to try and get them out of there. We finally had to hire an attorney who was a friend of my folks and he went to serve papers on them, he walked in the front door took one step and walked/ turned around and walked out. He said you guys come out here I am not coming in there. We finally got them out. KP: Replace the carpet? BP: We had to replace everything. The best room in the house was the linen closet, it had nothing in it. We had to re- due the floor in the bathroom, put in a new toilet, put in new carpet in the living room and we scrubbed that place from top to bottom and cleaned it. I can still remember that I was on top of the ladder in the living room and Reverend Clanninger, who was our minister there, came into see us, he saw me on top of the ladder and did I get a yelling at, scolded for being up. “ You‟ re pregnant you have no business being up on here painting.” And then we took all the hardware off the windows, the window sill, and I was making supper one night and my potato brush was sitting on the sink and I picked it up and cockroaches went all over. And I had never seen a cockroach and I let out a warhooke and Roy came running in and we called the health department the next day and they said you gotta remove all your hardware, don‟ t have any food out, you gotta put it all in the fridge, scrape and clean as best you can on the ceiling in the basement. So we went at it again and never saw another one. We got rid of them, but oh that was awful. So we lived there until Gary was, he must have been about two, and then we sold it and moved to a house out in Peruakee road, which was still Waukesha. We rented that and Roy then selling encyclopedias. KP: Would he go door to door to do that? BP: He had appointments. Then he worked for Janitorial Services too and sold their products and went to schools and places that bought them. We had this friend of ours, he was from Waukesha, they had moved to West Bend, he was a teacher and he called Roy one night and said they were looking for a business man and with all the experiences you‟ ve had with finances and stuff you should apply. Roy said, “ I don‟ t have a college degree.” He said, “ Do it anyway.” So Roy did. He applied and he got the job. So from there we moved up to West Bend and he was business manager for the school system there for must have been seven or eight years. Enjoyed every minute of it. Then Jill and Jeff were born in West Bend. KP: What was life like for your family? Were you poor? 16
BP: No we were middle class. KP: Did you own a home? BP: Eventually. We rented an apartment when we moved to West Bend and then we built a duplex about three blocks behind the apartment. We lived downstairs and we rented out the upstairs. That gave us the extra money and that was good. Then Gary had rheumatic fever when we lived there. KP: Was that common? BP: No. Not that I was aware of. But he had had a soar throat. He just never complained. I didn‟ t know that he had a soar throat. He finally came out of the bedroom one night and he could hardly walk, his legs were so weak. So I took him to the doctor the next day and he took a blood test and said he had rheumatic fever. KP: How old was he? BP: He ( Gary) was about four. Well I would guess about four or five. I don‟ t think he was in school yet. He couldn‟ t walk. I had to carry him everyplace. I would carry him outside and when summer came I would lay him on the blanket so he could watch people. He got over it but he had a heart murmur. It didn‟ t slow him down any. He was always a good kid. He always had accidents, macral that kid had accidents. He came home one time he got his foot caught in the back wheel of his friends bicycle, he was sitting on the back, so we had to take him to the emergency room for that. He got himself hit in the head with a baseball one day, just run from one thing to another. Anyway, we liked West Bend very much. KP: Was it hard being a stay at home mom all by yourself while Roy was at work? Was it hard? BP: No. KP: It wasn‟ t hard? BP: No it was great. I had a lot of friends and we would get together and have coffee in the mornings and the kids would play. Then we would just go home and do our house work and get our dinners ready and just thoroughly enjoyed it. KP: What would you gals talk about while you were drinking coffee? BP: Probably our kids and our husbands. I don‟ t remember much else. Once in a while if things were going on in the world that were not to our liking we would talk about them. Most of the time it was about our kids that were in school, and what they were learning, and what they were doing, what we wanted out of life. 17
KP: Did you and your husband have political affiliations? Were you Democrats or Republicans? BP: We kind of leaned toward Republican, but we have never belonged to a party. KP: Were most people that you new in Wisconsin Republican? BP: Yeah. Most people were Republican. KP: You lived in West Bend and then where did you and your family move from there? BP: When he ( Roy) was business manager yet, they were building a new school and they had all kinds of paneling and woods for studs and so forth and he went out to check on it one night and he saw teachers out there taking stuff in the cars to go home and build rec rooms in the basements. So he went and complained to the superintendent and told him, he said, “ That‟ s not right.” He said, “ The tax payers are paying for these things and the teachers are walking off with them.” The superintendent said, “ Well just turn your back on it. We can‟ t do anything about it, if they want to do that they can.” Roy said, “ I can‟ t turn my back on it, it is not right.” The superintendent said, “ Either you turn your back on it or you are fired.” He ( Roy) said, “ Fine then I quit.” Then he went and worked for Farm Bureau insurance in West Bend for a while, then there was an opening up in Appleton, Wisconsin which is North of West Bend. So we moved up to Appleton. We lived there for a year, oh I forgot, while we were in West Bend I went to vocational school and got a CNA degree. KP: Which is? BP: A Certified Nursing Assistant. KP: And what did you do that for? BP: So I could go to work and help my daughter get to BYU ( Brigham Young University- Provo) to help her financially and so I did. I worked up at the hospital. Not as a regular nurse but as a nurse‟ s aid. Then I worked from four in the afternoon „ til eleven at night. KP: Did you like that? BP: Yes, very much. But I made the mistake of not calling for help one night and I turned a man over in his bed to give him a bath and I wrenched my back. So from then on, I was out of a job because I could not do it. But I had made enough to help Gail, so that‟ s what I was there for. So I was back to being a stay at home mom, even though most the kids were in High School. KP: What kind of mother were you, strict like your mother or were you the disciplinary? BP: No, I don‟ t think so. KP: Did you follow your dad‟ s role? 18
BP: I think. I think we had a real good relationship with our kids. Gail and Gary were terrible. They were fighting all the time and I can still remember swatting both of their rears and trying to get them to see that it was not the thing to do. Jill and Jeff got along fine and Jill and Gary got along fine, it was just the older ones. But when they got older they were ok. That was just when they were little. We had a good family. We all enjoyed being together, every summer we would rent a trailer for two weeks and take a trip. We usually would go east, went to Hill Cumorah Pageant. Oh while we were in West Bend, the LDS missionaries knocked on our door. We invited them in and so we listened and joined the LDS church. KP: What year was that? BP: That was 1962, „ cause we went out to Salt Lake in 1963. Then I always had a good appetite for money and went over my budget, so we had debts. After we joined the church and found out about tithing I said to Roy “ We cant do it.” And he said, “ We are going to do it or we are not joining the church.” So we did it. Ok we have to do something. There was a grocery store for sell, a little corner grocery store, two old maids had owned it and they had it up for sell because one was going to an old persons home and the other was I don‟ t know, doing something. So we made them an offer and bought it. We sold our house and the grocery store had a four bedroom house attached to it. So I worked in the store during the day and with Jeff, he was still home and then the kids would go to school and every day one of them would take a turn working in the store so I could go in the house and get supper started. It worked out real good. KP: So you were in a grocery store? BP: Yeah, it was good for the kids. They all took their turns and no problems or complaints. KP: Was that fun for you? BP: Yes, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the people. KP: Was it a normal thing for a woman to run a business in those days? BP: No. In fact I imagine more than one thought we were a little bit crazy. But the funny part was they were always these old maids in Wisconsin. Sunday is a day were you go to church and after church you stop in a grocery store and you would buy potato salad and a ring of bologna and jell- o and stuff to take home for supper and hard rolls, always had to have hard rolls. Anyway, so they were always open on Sunday, well we were not open on Sunday, didn‟ t believe in it and boy the neighbors were mad. More than one told me, but this one lady told me about it and she came in and complained. And we would be visiting and I told her why it was against our religious beliefs and we don‟ t work on Sunday. KP: Were you LDS at this time? 19
BP: Yes. We had joined the church. So she came and she always had questions for me so we talked quite a bit about the LDS church and they were a good Catholic family. I think they had seven or eight kids. Then I lost track of her when we moved from there ( West Bend). I got arthritis so bad that the doctor said, “ Beatrice you have to get off your feet. You can‟ t work behind that counter so much.” So we sold the grocery store and we moved up to a big old farm house which we remodeled and from there we moved up to Appleton. Then we were there a year. Roy worked for Farm Bureau and Gary and Gail had both gone up to BYU and every time they talked to us, “ We‟ re not coming home mom, we like it out here.” Roy came home one day and said, “ Hey there is an opening out in Blackfoot/ Shelly for Farm Bureau, do you want to go?” I said, “ You bet.” So we put the house on the market, packed up the kids, and moved to Idaho. One of the elders who had lived with us for a while in West Bend was from Shelly and he did nothing but talk about Shelly, so we moved to Shelley. KP: You went on a couple missions for the Mormon church? BP: We went on three, turned into four missions. We went to England in 1982. KP: What part of England? BP: Well we hit it all. We were called to the England, Coventry mission. KP: Where is Coventry? BP: It‟ s in the middle, a little bit below the middle of England. It‟ s below Lester, the southern most point in England. We were called to the Coventry mission. President Quinn McKay was our mission president. We sold everything as we had nobody living around to take care of any of our property. We had bought a newspaper, built a trailer park, from the money from our daughters ( Gail) insurance that she got when she was killed. Then we had built a home, and we had Roy started a sub- division. So we had nobody to take care of any of it. So we sold the whole works. Told the Bishop, he called us and six weeks later we had sold everything. We got to go. Jeff was married just before. So we went in June of 1982, into the MTC. KP: Was there any difference when you got to England? What were some of the first things you noticed as far as the culture? BP: Very different. They gave a whole list of words that our different than ours in the
MTC. Then when we got there I didn‟ t realize that after World War II, I don‟ t think it had been more than five or six years, that they had finally gotten off of rationing. When you saw all the bombed out placed, Coventry cathedral was bombed, and it was very sad. The people are not Catholic, well I shouldn‟ t say none of them, the English religion is, ok, Episcopal. The Church of England. That‟ s where it started. The history over there is marvelous. We thoroughly enjoyed our P days. Going to see all the old Cathedrals and they bury there important people right under the floor in the Cathedrals. We saw Roman ruins and roman coffins, which I loved. I should have gone into Archaeology. We were going on a walk one day in Lester, which was a big 20
Roman headquarters and they were making a new road, and we were waling along and I found an old piece of roman pottery and so I brought that home. Then one friend we were visiting with had a metal detector and he gave me an old roman coin, he had found. Anyway, I loved England. I would go back there at a drop of a hat. KP: Now when you got there what sort of differences, as a women, did you notice from American and what they expect from their women and England and what they expect from their women? Do you remember any differences? BP: Yeah. KP: Do you feel they were more oppressed in any way? BP: No, they were not oppressed in any way. But they knew their place and stayed in it. KP: More than you feel American woman, who are more able to go outside of that ( their place)? BP: Right. And women over there did not mind a bit in working in the garden or yard or pulling the horses, or anything. They just do what needs to be done. They don‟ t have big yards, they have what they call gardens in the back of their homes and their homes most of them are attached to each other. They‟ re attached houses is what they call them. Some of them, which are a little bit wealthier, have single houses. But I loved them. They‟ re very hard people to get to know because they are very private. But once you make friends you will never be without a friend. They were great. And the men were good too and worked hard. I just loved it. I loved their culture. I would go over their and stay forever. I miss my friends that I made over there. We got to serve… we started over on the East side in England in Scalding, and Seaford and Stanford, which is on the East coast. Then we went to Lester. We were there for about thirteen months. Then we went to North Whales. So we crossed the whole country. We had to buy a car when we got over there. We went shopping and got one used our savings and bought the car and bless it‟ s heart it lasted the whole mission. KP: Did you see more poverty, than you had seen in the states? BP: Yeah, but you don‟ t call it poverty. They are just used to living in those conditions. They just accept it and that‟ s the way it is. They will work the best they can and do what they can and they all grow their own vegetables. KP: So the woman was not only in charge of the family household, kids, but was also in charge of the garden? BP: Yes. The man would go out and work the manual labor. KP: She was in charge of the home? BP: Yeah. 21
KP: Within the homes of those people in England during that time… we‟ re talking about the seventies or eighties… BP: No eighties. KP: Was she in charge of the home? BP: Yeah, I would say definitely she was. She and her husband would normally work together pretty well. I never felt any pulling of opposites. They were just good people. KP: Let‟ s get to your third mission. You did go to Dallas in between, Texas and serve in the temple there. Let‟ s go and this is where you had the two part mission you started in Nigeria, and ended up in Ireland. Let‟ s talk about Nigeria. Let‟ s talk about the women in Nigeria when you go there. What did you notice about the women in Nigeria? BP: They‟ re beautiful. They are a beautiful people. It is fascinating „ cause they all carry their babies on their backs with just kind of a sling, a clothe sling, never wore diapers, and I never saw a women who had any problem with getting messy. They seemed to know their children‟ s rhythms. They would just take them out of the sling put them on the side of the road, let them pittle or poop and put them back in their slings. It was amazing. They work hard. They do most of the labor, men are not real handy with work. That‟ s very definitely a male dominated society. KP: Do you remember any instances, they yell at women? BP: No, not that I never heard them yell at any one. But they carry the stick. The men would be out playing chess or ping pong, checkers or ping pong, and the women would be scrubbing clothes in the river and doing all the household labors. There houses are terrible, those that have houses have dirt floors and very little furniture, maybe one electric light bulb hanging from the ceiling. No bathrooms, they just go outside and there are open sewers all over the place. KP: So a very patriarchic society? BP: Yes, very much so. There is a lot of tribal rule. They still have a king in Onecha, where we were stationed. We got to go and meet him. One of our members over there was good friend of the princes so he got us invited to a meeting with the King and all the tribal chiefs were all lined up and going down in front of them and they had a colon nut . We were told not to take it because it is not good for you. The King knew that so he did not offer us one. But they all took one and they chewed them. We got a private audience with them afterwards. He ( the king) was very nice and congenial and knew about the LDS church to a point. Just very friendly. KP: Were the women educated? 22
BP: They all have to go to school because the English colonized it and insisted that they learn English and attend school. Thank goodness most of them spoke English. It was a pigeon English but we could understand it. They would go to school and then they would go home and I don‟ t think the women stayed in school, maybe fourth- fifth grad and they were done. I am not sure how long the men were in. I didn‟ t see any colleges. KP: Most people were worried about the basics of life? BP: Yes, but lots of cripples, lots of people begging on the street. There was a bakery there that we were told we could go buy bread if we went immediately when they got it out of the ovens, because they don‟ t‟ wrap it or anything and the flies go all over it. So we would stand there at the window and wait for them to get them out of the oven and take a hot loaf home and oh it was good bread. KP: Were the men mostly the business owners? BP: Maybe the owners, but not the workers, the women were. We did see some, well you could not call them cow warries but you could call them cattlemen, and they had these long horn cows and they were driving them around the outskirts of the city. I never saw such skinny cows all the days of my life. They were terrible looking. But there isn‟ t that much grass, it is mostly sand. We did see that. Never saw a wild animal, the whole time we were there and I asked a couple of the guys we knew from church and he said they ate them all. I said, well that explains it, you didn‟ t even see a monkey. Then we would drive form Onecha to Osaba. We had both of the cities, and that was right along the Niger river and there would be people, they had little shacks, and they would have crocodiles hanging or bushmeat they would call it, I don‟ t know what it was, some kind of animal they caught in the jungle. All along the road you could stop by and buy some. They would take it home and make soup in a great big pot on an open fire in their yards and they would just put any thing in it they could get. They would put rats, fish heads, we walked to the market, we had to go to the market to get fresh fruits and vegetables, some how we got turned around and went in the wrong side one day and we just had breakfast and we walked past all these tables of dead mice, and rats and fish heads and I almost lost my breakfast. And I started running and said, “ Ok.” And then we got to the fruit part which was much nicer. The women do carry all these big loads on their heads and they have a beautiful posture, stand up real straight. Saw a naked man run through the market one day, he didn‟ t run he walked, I ran the other direction. Many people along the road would just stop and relieve themselves so you learned to just look the other way. KP: You mentioned that the role of women in this patriarchal society, but did you see a difference within the church or was it the same? BP: No, it was still, in fact many men had more than one wife, because polygamy was allowed over there. In fact, in the tribes it is encouraged. When they joined the church they have to choose one wife. KP: They do? 23
BP: Yes. KP: And you saw that first hand? BP: Yes. The man will join the church first and then they will bring there wives. Then they take the lessons and they will get baptized. But the men were always first. KP: You would never approach the wife before you approached the husband? BP: No. KP: You wouldn‟ t every do that as a missionary? BP: Yes. You would go to the man first, hopefully you could go to the two of them. KP: And when you were in a discussion, was it ok to address questions to the women or would you have to address all the questions to the man? BP: We never gave any discussions. The missionaries were the ones we took to do that because we were there for leadership. KP: But did they have to follow that order, they could not just ask the women, they mostly spoke to the man? BP: Yeah, but if he had joined and she was not a member, then they ( missionaries) would ask her. Then the children all come in and those kids are so cute. They all walked to church because nobody has cars because no one can afford them. They walk miles and they all come singing. They sing the hymns all the way to church and all the way home. It‟ s just marvelous and didn‟ t have an organ and the old chorister would stand up there and beat with his foot, one, two, three, go and then they would start singing. KP: A chorister in America is usually a woman in the church, were women because of the tribal customs allowed to hold callings within the church? BP: Yes, they did. We had relief society. Sunday school teachers were almost all men. KP: What about the primary? BP: Primary had women teachers. And those kids love to sing. KP: And from Africa you went to Ireland, when you guys got sick? BP: I got malaria, yeah and we went to Dublin, Ireland mission. 24
KP: Was that different than England? They‟ re not too far away from each other. BP: They are different. They are different. The Irish are a very hard working, not that the English are not, but they are more of an agricultural country. They‟ re way back. They really don‟ t want modern machinery, they‟ re very happy with their old ways. And of course the north and the south is a sad situation. We had members of the church who would not even give us their address because they didn‟ t want it to get in the wrong hands. Soldiers would all come up and down the street with there guns caulked and ready to go and in tanks. KP: And this was all during the time that you were there? Were they at civil war? BP: Yeah, that‟ s your north and south Ireland. They are fighting all the time. Then you go down south, we ended up in Cork, you don‟ t see any of that, that‟ s all in the Republic of Ireland, in the south. The north of course belonged to England and that‟ s where the problem came. We were in Balamina and I remember I sat straight up in bed one night, it was about three o‟ clock in the morning, and I couldn‟ t think of what woke me up. And I said to Roy… we both sat up and anyway we decided we didn‟ t know what it was, we went back to sleep. On the way to church the next morning there was a great big hole were the police station had been. They had blown it up. That‟ s what woke us up. We didn‟ t know what. KP: How were the women treated in Ireland, during the time you were there? Was it patriarchal? BP: It was still pretty… yeah, the men liked there beer. They go to the pub all the time. But the women go to some of them, not all of them. KP: The women mostly are restricted to being at home and taking care of the house and kids? BP: Yeah, I didn‟ t see a lot out. KP: Did they labor outside the home as much as people in Nigeria? BP: No. I don‟ t think so. KP: Now Dublin is a pretty big city? BP: We weren‟ t really in Dublin very long. That‟ s where the mission home was. We went up to Omah, which is up north of Belfast, nice little town. Then we went from there over to… no we did not, we went to Balamina first, that‟ s north of Belfast, that was a small town and a good way to start. Then we went to Omah, which is a big city. Then from there we went to Corke, which is down in south Ireland, and it was a completely different feeling. It‟ s hard because it‟ s a very strongly catholic country. They‟ ve been since St. Patrick got there and all were Catholic. They are good people, hard working, good people. But it‟ s a whole different feeling when you get to Ireland. I think it is better now. 25
KP: Would they talk to you about religion, or were they devout, or just custom to go to church every once and a while? BP: It‟ s custom and they go pretty much every Sunday, but mostly habit, which I think it is with any religion. They are good people, basically good and honest. One thing that I learned over there that I had never known before we went on a tour and went to, can‟ t remember the name of it, monastery, a whole village, where the monks and their wives lived. Way back in the beginning the monks were married and I did not know that. One of the popes farther up the line came up with this celibacy thing, so that was a real eye opener. I had no idea. It is a beautiful country. They don‟ t keep their ruins up like the English do, but you see all kinds of them when you drive around the countryside. Ok the castle, Barning castle, I had always heard about of the Barney stone and I was bound to kiss it, it gave you the gift of gab. I didn‟ t know that you had to lay over backwards over the castle wall, they have a man there that holds your feet and you lean way back over and the rock is here and you kiss it, and I did. Roy would not do it, but I did. The Lord blessed us with a lot of good experiences in meeting many, many good people. Now we are both getting older and I wondered at the time why the Lord called us, when were both, Roy wasn‟ t even retired yet. But now with the situation, with the dimension and all, he did know the end from the beginning. Had a good life, wonderful grandkids, great grandkids. KP: Thank you for having this interview with me grandma, I appreciated it. BP: I appreciate you asking me.