Charles and Marinda England (December 27, 1980)

              Voices From the Past
Charles William and Marinda Albert England
By Charles William and Marinda Albert England
December 27, 1980
Tape # 92
Oral Interview conducted by Harold Forbush
Transcribed by Tia Aucoin Feb 2007
Edited by Niccole Franc March 2008
Brigham Young University- Idaho
Harold Forbush: I‟ m privileged this afternoon of Saturday at 1: 00 on the 27th of December 1980 to have been invited by a Mr. Charles William England and his good wife Marinda Alberta England to be in their home here at Rexburg, Idaho for the purpose of having them share with me what appears to be a very abundant life that these people have lived and as a married couple of— almost made a record as far as husband and wife relationship— over 67 years, going on 68 years.
Now, I‟ m going to preface my inquiry of them by a little comment that last summer, as our Upper Snake River Valley Historical Society prepared to be in the parade for the 4th of July, we cast about and wondered who we could get as elderly couples who have lived in Madison County over many, many years, I don‟ t know if it would be 50 or not specifically in the county, and Brother and Sister England was in the parade. They road on a wagon pulled by horses and I think on that occasion Parkinson had invited them. I personally had invited one or two others but they felt that it was just too taxing for them to do this. But this courageous couple, married over 67 years together, isn‟ t that tremendous?
Well now, I want you to share with me and maybe Brother England will answer, maybe Marinda will answer but you feild the questions as you see fit and I may direct some very specifically at one or the other, otherwise, you, feild the questions. How long have you lived in Madison County, Brother England?
Charles William England: We moved to Madison County, located at Sugar City, February the 12th, 1925.
HF: And of course, let‟ s see, that would mean that you had already been married about eight or ten years or such a matter?
CE: 14 years.
HF: 14 years by that time. Now it‟ s interesting to understand that you people lived out in Dubois for a while.
CE: Yes.
HF: What occasion took you to that little out of the way community?
CE: I was working for the Utah Credit Association. I put on a sale at Rupert. This was when the businesses were going broke after the First World War and they had to put on sales to get in money to keep them going. And we finished our sale at Rupert and they transferred us to Dubois to put on a sale for the Miller and Gale Company there and we went there in the spring of 1919 and we landed there just when they were starting to locate on the farms over there as taking up homesteads. Right at the time, too, of the time of the depression that was on. But we sold the Miller and Gale store out in one year there and then Doctor Meeker there had a drug store there, a nice store, and he came and got me to come and work for him.
HF: How do you spell his name?
CE: M- E- E- K- E- R.
HF: Now, Charlie, I understand that here‟ s a gentleman of quite an outstanding personality. Tell me a little about this Mr. Meeker. This Doctor Meeker.
CE: This Doctor Meeker was non- LDS, although he had been raised with the LDS people over in some part of Montana. No, it was across the east of us here, about Jackson Hole, Wyoming. It was Wyoming. He was raised over in that territory. But he was a dentist as well as a druggist, chemist and he had a nice building there and a good drug store and he was very helpful to the LDS people there. Now when I went there, they were just ready to organizer a branch of the church there and they put a man by the name of I. J. Stewart in this presiding Elder of the branch and me in the Sunday school superintendent and we went right to work to gather up all the people we could around there to get them interested in coming into our place. We had Sunday School and meetings and primary over there in different homes and finally ended up in an old building that we had to remodel a little but by fall we had made up our mind to try and build a church there and so the president of the stake, President Austin, Heber C. Austin, came up and…
HF: Now, would the headquarters of that been over here in Rexburg?
CE: He was in Idaho Falls. We were in Idaho Falls, first stake. And he came up and told us that he was going to organize a ward there. So he did and he put I. J. Stewart in as Bishop, me as first councilor, and I was made a High Priest then in 1919, September as I remember it, 1919, and anther man by the name of Bert Holeman, he used to be at Sugar City, and he had moved over there on a dry farm and they put him in as second councilor. We organized a ward there and put in a Mrs. Ed Laird president of the Relief Society and my wife as first councilor, and another lady second councilor. We organized the whole thing, Primary, Sunday School, all by Young Ladies and Young Men, mutual. We didn‟ t have enough there to do that at that time, but we did later. But, Dr. Meeker was so helpful. He got a group together outside people and those that belonged to the church to get ready and give their 25 cents and dollars and hundreds of dollars until we got money enough to start to build this church. We got credit there with the lumber company and the city gave us a lot there just on the north side of town. We built us a nice, just one room, but it was a good sized one. And by the fall of ‟ 20 we had had that church built but we didn‟ t have money enough yet to pay for it all, to have it dedicated. Dr. Meeker and some of the other businessmen got together, went up to Spencer, where the Wood‟ s Livestock company is or was, and they came back that night with the money we needed.
HF: Isn‟ t that something. CE: With the money that the church gave us, and what we had collected there we paid for that church that year and had it dedicated. Now, they still held me in superintendent of the Sunday school until the fall of ‟ 21, as well as in the bishopric. But I was transferred then. The Utah Credit Association got me to go to Lama, Montana to sell a big business out there to help them because they had let out so much credit that they just couldn‟ t‟ go any farther.
HF: Well now, this Utah Credit Association, as it implies, I suppose Mr. England, was a credit collection association?
CE: They were. That association was made up of all the wholesalers who had furnished the materials for these people to stay in business and now it had got to where they couldn‟ t give them any more credit so they had to send us out and sell merchandise enough there to start them out again. That‟ s the way it had to be done.
HF: You weren‟ t necessarily foreclosing on them?
HE: Oh, no. Oh, no.
HF: You were just trying to get them…
CE: Trying to keep them in business.
HF: I see. Where did you obtain a background of this nature?
CE: I was brought right up in general merchandise as a kid.
HF: Where?
CE: Worked at it until I left Oregon and come to Idaho and that was in 1912 and that was at Burley.
HF: Well now, in Oregon, I‟ m assuming that that‟ s where you were born, maybe?
CE: No. I was born in Preston, Idaho in 1892 and my father was taken out to La Grande, Oregon by the amalgamated sugar company. They had put in a factory out there, a sugar factory at Le Grande. And so the family, of course, had to move, too. He sold out at Moreland. He was Bishop at Moreland and he sold out there and we went to Le Grand.
HF: Now this is Moreland, just out of Preston?
CE: Just out of Blackfoot.
HF: Just out of Blackfoot?
CE: Yes. And we got out there. Of course there were no Mormons out there until a few came in with the sugar company, you see. And father was the first bishop out there.
HF: It was organized in to a ward, then?
CE: Well, finally.
HF: When you went out there it was just a branch?
CE: There was no organization, nothing there. And we used to hold our meetings there in their different homes and even some outside people let us to have our meetings in their homes until finally father bought a farm at Union and bought a little piece of land in town and he gave a part of that land to the branch there and they finally made that into a ward and put him in as Bishop. And he gave them this piece of land there to build the church on which they did. And then in 1906, I think it was, he was made patriarch and was patriarch from then on. The Lucas girls that live here was out there at that time. They moved in there just about that time and a number of others, the Lloyds and the Jacobson‟ s all from here was lumber people and they moved out to Union and went in to the sawmill business up above union and then built a planning mill at union, and that brought in more of the LDS people because they brought some with them, see, from here.
HF: Well now, your background in merchandising. How did that occur? How extensive was it there in Oregon?
CE: Well, I‟ ll tell you. I was ill. When I was 10 years old I had Typhoid fever with two sisters. We all had Typhoid fever. We lost one sister. And that winter is typhoid and we, the other sister just older than I got through. Then when I was 12 years old a case of diphtheria all through the town and the whole town was down practically. I remember a larger young woman, my, she was large, large frame as well as fleshy. She and I, they said, had what they call Black Diphtheria. She died in that and the Doctor was the father of the man that I worked for in the general merchandise. And he practically made his home with us while this was going on and he‟ d go from my place to answer calls and come back and take care of me. And they gave me 10,000 volts of antitoxin in my left arm and it didn‟ t take. And he said, “ Well, there‟ s only one thing to do and it‟ ll be a miracle if he ever comes through it and that is to give him the same amount in the right arm. If that goes through and doesn‟ t wake up the 10, 000 volts in the left arm, if it doesn‟ t‟ wake that up, we might be able to save him. If it does, why, we‟ ll never save him.” But he says “ It‟ s the only chance we can take.” So they held a little consultation and said “ Well, we‟ ll take the chance.” So they did. He stayed right at my side after that for several days just out to answer a call and right back and they had to swab my throat but finally it woke this one up in the left arm and he says “ I don‟ t think we have a chance in the world to save him” but they did. They stayed right there, the one sister and my mother they just stayed right there and swabbed my throat and kept me so I could breathe. Finally it took its effect on me and I came out of it. And he told the folks, he said “ Well, we got him through this but he will never live to be 20 years old. He can‟ t do it.” He said “ his heart is injured” and my folks didn‟ t tell me that for quite a while and finally they did tell me after I came out of it and I had got so I could walk a good distance and trot and everything and I finally got so I could play basketball, football, and I boxed for two years and never felt an effect at all in that heart. I just worked it up gradual and finally overcome that. And I didn‟ t really feel a bad effect of it until after the First World War, or the Second World War started and they took us all in to different services and at that time I had been studying to be a nature path. I had already graduated from chiropractor school but it wasn‟ t just what I wanted so I went into the naturopathy.
HF: Now let‟ s go back here a minute now. I want to get into that but we‟ re wanting to find out a little about how and what background you acquired as a merchandiser.
CE: Well, in the first place, I went to business school in Salt Lake.
HF: But as a young fellow, didn‟ t you have an opportunity of working in a store?
CE: I worked in a store from when I was about 10 years old I worked for this Forstrum who was the son of our Doctor, town doctor. He‟ s the Doctor that took care of me and brought me through this Diphtheria case.
HF: So you had had some practical experience as a young fellow in merchandising, and then you went on to college to get the academic training.
CE: That‟ s right.
HF: And where was this?
CE: Salt Lake, LDS Business.
HF: And it was sometime following that that you were retained by the Utah Credit Association?
CE: Yes, I started with them in the fall of 1918 and ended up at Rupert selling a store out there. When we got through with that, while we were there in the spring, we had a little daughter that had been injured while we were in Pocatello. She fell down some stairs and had what they called a tumor on the brain. It gradually grew in to a tumor on the brain and it finally took her and she passed away while we were at Rupert. They couldn‟ t do anything for her. We had bought a lot over at Burley and buried her there at Burley.
Then they came and got us to go to Dubois. Then we went to Lima and we only, we had only been there just a few weeks and we, in lima, and they had a big strike on the railroad and they had just started a branch there and it all disorganized because the men that was there that was striking wouldn‟ t mix with those that come to take their jobs. They called them scabs and the scabs wouldn‟ t work with the others because they couldn‟ t so in came President Brigham S. Young. He was president of the Northwestern States Missions at that time and brought two elders in there with him. He came in and he was holding a meeting that night and Mrs. England and I didn‟ t know anything about there was a meeting. We went over to there meeting and while we were sitting there President Brigham S. Young got up and he said “ Is there a Charles W. England in the audience?” So I thought maybe they were talking about someone else because we just weren‟ t known there. And come to find out, he had been down to Idaho Falls and President Austin told him that I was up there and told him to get a hold of me and that I would help him in the branch there. So he called again and then I held up my hand and he called me to the front and he told me this story and he says “ Now, we want to put you in Presiding Elder here and Sunday school superintendent. We want to put your wife in president of the Relief Society and then the elders will stay here and help you organize the rest of it and I‟ ve got to go back to Portland.” So he did that and they set up apart as aiding missionaries in the Western States Mission, was about the words they used.
And we were there just one year till we sold this, got this man on his feet again, and they transferred us to salmon City, Idaho and at that time Salmon City was still in the Western, North Western States Mission and there was no branch there. We didn‟ t know really if there was any LDS there at all but we found that the manager of JC Penney store was an LDS and his wife and they had two little daughters. Now, she was a good worker but he wouldn‟ t do anything. But we found another family there that was the milkman of the town and he delivered milk all over town. They had been there for years and they had seven daughters, none of them baptized, and yet that couple had been married in the temple. Nut he went around delivering milk with a cigar, looked like about six or eight inches long all the time. But we finally got him over that but they, again, organized the branch there and put me in as presiding elder and Sunday school superintendent. A Mrs. Chipman, she‟ s the, she was the mother of Mrs. Johnson that lives up here on the street, right just the side of you.
HF: Riesa?
CE: Yeah. She was the mother of Mrs. Johnson. And we put her in President of the Relief Society, Mrs. England in First Counselor and Mrs. England in President of the Primary and then they, the two elders stayed with us there for a while to get things going but Mrs. England had been trained with her mother, her mother was a trained nurse and a midwife and Mrs. England had taken training with her mother in taking care of mothers and babies and at Dubois, she took care of practically all there in that case because we only had a doctor there that was there part of the time.
HF: Well let‟ s let her tell a little of this story, should we?
Melinda Albert England: Well, I remember going up a stair carrying one little kid on my arm, getting in the house. There was another little kid, both of them wear diapers, and the mother expecting a baby and I delivered the baby. I had my hands full at the time. I had two babies on the foot of the bed and the mother in the bed having another one. And that‟ s the kind of places I was in. They couldn‟ t afford the hired help. We didn‟ t get anything but the good feeling we was helping somebody.
HF: How many youngsters do you feel that you, did you take account as to how many you brought into the world?
ME: Well, I, no, we brought three there. I brought three into the world there. But I also made caskets that a carpenter would make the box, the caskets, then I would line them and go to the store and line them and some of them didn‟ t even have a decent dress to bury their baby in and I‟ d go. I had lost my baby and I had all its cute clothes and I would take some of my baby‟ s clothes to put on these little babies.
HF: Now, you were doing this in the capacity, of course, as a Relief Society lady as well as missionaries at work?
ME: Yeah.
HF: Now, did you and did you people live right in Salmon City?
CE: Yes, we went right into Salmon. We lived there and worked out of the Salmon City all over there and even up in Challis.
HF: You did quite a lot of missionary work.
CE: Oh, yes.
And May and Leonard Gilmore, we converted quite a few people up in that part of the country and baptized them. I baptized six of these daughters of this couple that was the milk man, and the one that was too young to baptize and the next year she became eight years old and I baptized her. So I baptized the eighth in the family there.
HF: Now, this is kind of interesting. Now, you had never had a mission yourself had you?
CE: No, neither one of us.
HF: Now that‟ s kind of interesting isn‟ t it, that you had lived out in the Fringe area, so you had an opportunity. You must‟ ve come and been reared in a wonderful family.
CE: Sure was.
ME: Yes, His daddy was a patriarch.
HF: You bet. Isn‟ t that something?
CE: Daddy was bishop at Moreland and then we moved out to Le Grande and then he was Bishop out there, then they made him patriarch.
ME: My mother, if she could get paid for all the babies she delivered she‟ d have money, too. HF: Now what was your mother‟ s name?
ME: Jensen. Katherine Jensen.
HF: And where had she lived? Where were you born?
ME: Canada. I was born in Canada.
HF: What year? What‟ s the date of your birth?
ME: 11th of May.
CE: 1897, 11th of May.
HF: 1897. Now, you would be approximately five years younger.
ME: I‟ m 83.
CE: 4 ½ years, yes.
HF: I see. What part of Canada?
ME: Cardston.
HF: Cardston, Canada. Jensen.
ME: Yep.
CE: She played on the ground where the temple is.
ME: Sure did.
HF: Hmm. Well how did you people happen to meet? Where and when?
ME: We both went in to Burley. I was coming from Salt Lake. I lived with a sister in Salt Lake where while the folks was moving from Canada. They had lived in Canada and they moved to Salt Lake and I went with them. And he was coming with his folks from Oregon and we all had to stop at Minocha and take the same train into Burley.
CE: Her folks had moved to Burley in the meantime and so had mine, you see?
ME: So, we see each other but we didn‟ t meet till the next day. I met a girl and this guy had a horse and buggy and the boyfriend, and we was walking‟ along and they come along and asked us if we‟ d like a ride and that‟ s how we met. We got in the buggy with them and had a buggy ride. I think I‟ d only gone with him a few times when he asked me if I… well I went to work for the superintendent of the factories. I keep house for her. CE: At Burley.
HF: At the sugar factory?
CE: The amalgamated sugar company.
ME: And I had made a nice pie for their dinner. I was just a kid, 15 years old, and just lacked a few days of being 16 when we got married. And I‟ d made this pie and while I was getting‟ my dishes finished up, I had a date with him. She‟ d give him a piece of pie and he said “ Oh, that was good pie” and I said “ Well, I made it” and he said “ Well, will you make pie for me?” and I didn‟ t think he meant it. So he goes home and I said “ Oh, sure, I‟ d be glad to make pie or you.” And so the next day his sister come and hugged and kissed me and told me that he figured that we were engaged and that was the first I knew it but we went together for what, nine months?
CE: It was nearly a year.
ME: Then we got married.
CE: We were married April-
ME: 16th.
CE: 16th of April of the next year in 1913.
ME: And in all these years I‟ ve taken 18 foster girls and give a home.
CE: This was 1912 when we met in Burley.
ME: Three or Four of them I‟ ve took to the temple to be married.
HF: Now how many children did you give birth to?
ME: We had seven and one died. We‟ ve adopted two. We had six of our own and adopted two.
CE: We had four daughters and four boys and lost one daughter.
HF: Are most of them in this area?
ME: We don‟ t have four daughters.
CE: I said we have four daughters and lost one. That makes the three we have left.
ME: Oh, yes.
CE: Florence Benson is our oldest daughter and Betty Fisher is our second daughter and Sandra Crusoe is our third daughter.
ME: And we buried one.
HF: Well that‟ s really something.
ME: And I was so mad about losing my girl that every time I‟ d hear of a place that had mama died I‟ d go and see if they wanted me to take a little girl. We went out here in the country miles and miles.
CE: Way up above Ashton.
ME: We heard on the radio that mama died and left two or three little children and so I said to dad, “ Well, let‟ s get in the car and go up there and see if they‟ ll let us take one of those little kids” and went and talked to him and he says “ I‟ d be glad. I‟ d be awful glad to have you take one of my daughters.” But he said “ You‟ d have to come here and live.” So that settled that. I didn‟ t bother him anymore.
HF: Well, that‟ s a pretty good record, 18 of them. It‟ s tremendous.
ME: Yes.
CE: Some we put through high school. There was one or two that wouldn‟ t finish like they will, naturally. But we also put some through college, here. We put some through beauty school. We put two or three through clerical school.
ME: We took them from the children‟ s home in Salt Lake and then, too, we had to take some back. They got unruly and we took one from the Boise home.
HF: Tremendous.
ME: Took one from the industrial school out here but we had to let her go back.
HF: Well now, Charlie, when you mentioned previously that you came to Sugar City, what prompted the move to Sugar?
CE: After we were at Salmon, we left Salmon in the fall of 1924 and was released over there. We made up our mind we wanted to go into business for ourselves and so we went to Salt Lake and I started to work there for a chiropractor. We got Mrs. England into the beauty school there at Arbacks. There was a school, a beauty school, and she finally got through with that and then she started to work for Arbacks Beauty Parlors there in Salt Lake. She was an extremely good woman‟ s haircutter and the Paris Beauty Supply used to get her to demonstrate cutting lady‟ s hair for groups of beauty operators that they would bring in there. And then they were having an awful time with the chiropractors there, staying in business in Utah, and finally the man I was working with sold out and moved to California and I had had training in barbering and so I went down and got me a job in one of the Barber shops. We decided we‟ d just leave the other part out for a while and go into our own business.
HF: In other words, you as a barber and your wife as a beautician.
HF: And this was in…?
CE: In Salt Lake.
HF: In Salt Lake.
CE: Well, we were just getting start in there good and Jesse L. Roberts, Jesse Roberts had married my wife‟ s sister and that was John L. Robert‟ s son from Sugar City. Bill Roberts lives here. He‟ s up in…
HF: I know him.
CE: Yeah. Well he‟ s one of the brothers of Jess. And they had had some trouble over at Sugar City with the barber over there so a group of them got together and bought him out and got him out of town and Jess told him then that we had been training down in Salt Lake and would be good to bring in there. So the father, John L. Roberts, come down to Salt Lake, found me and told me he wanted to meet with us that night. So we had a little apartment on 4th South East and he come out and talked to us and told us that they had had this barber shop there and there was room in the back for a beauty parlor and they wanted to get us to come up there. Well, we talked it over and decided that well, maybe we‟ d better do that because that would be a good idea. So we went to the beauty shop down there, or the beauty wholesale in Salt Lake and bought Mrs. England‟ s outfit and among it we bought a permanent wave machine.
ME: I‟ ve got the first permanent wave machine in this part of Idaho.
CE: Yes sir. So when we had that shipped up here and we landed in Sugar City, the 12th day of February, 1925.
ME: Snow clear up to here.
CE: And in a few days, here come her stuff and we put it in the back and fixed her up with her beauty parlor and she built up a tremendous business there.
HF: Where were you located there in Sugar?
CE: We were in the old Picture Show House, just west of the bank on the corner.
HF: That‟ s still over there?
CE: Oh, yes. The building is still there. There was the Bean Hardware Sugar City hardware right next to it. Anyway, we don‟ t like to rent, so we decided that we‟ d build as a home. And we looked around. Finally we found an older home right on Main Street and we‟ d bought that and had a Mr. Stone come and examine the whole thing and tell us what we could do with it. He says “ That‟ s a good old home.” He said “ We could fix that up and fix that up good for you.” So he fixed the front end of the house for the barber shop and build a room on the outside on the west side for Mrs. England‟ s beauty parlor and I wanted to do some of my treatments so we built one on the East side for my treating and I could do that morning and night, you know.
HF: As a nature path you mean?
CE: Yeah. And so then I built up a business there that I couldn‟ t handle both of them so I went and got a man by the name of Ritzoff, Art Ritzoff from St. Anthony. He was just, barbering part time up there. Now he‟ s the father of the Ritzoff out here that‟ s the auctioneer.
HF: Frank.
CE: Yeah. I got him to come down and run the barbershop while I was running my nature path business on the side. Mrs. England had a business there. She had at one time two or three operators there with her. Well in 1938, I think, they decided to come split to ward over at Sugar City, make two wards out of it. And I had been made Sunday School Superintendent just after we went there again. Well, they come and got me. President Romney knew us very well. Our lots were back to back in Oakley Idaho and he was president of what they called then the Oakley Academy. Well they closed that and sent him here to Rick‟ s College to be president of the Rick‟ s College.
HF: Let‟ s see. Now what was his name?
ME: Romney.
HF: Yeah, it wasn‟ t George, was it?
CE: No, George was a brother. Let‟ s see.
ME: Was it Basal?
CE: No, that‟ s not the brother.
ME: Marion was the boy.
CE: Marion Romney is his son.
HF: That‟ s his son.
CE: Yes. At any rate, we…
ME: George Romney?
CE: Yes, it was George Romney. We, we hadn‟ t been here only a little while and they decided again to separate they decided to… In the first place the bishop got ill, Bishop Rell, Alfred Ricks. So they decided they‟ d have to make a change in the ward so they did that and they put in Charles Hamold as Bishop, and between Charles Hamold and President Romney, why, they wanted me to be Sunday school superintendent. So I had had the kids at Sunday school and I was supervising the high priests at Sugar City also at that time and I just got home with my children, went in there and the doctor had already been in there and delivered my son, Darrell while we were at church at Sunday school. And we‟ d only been there just a little while with the kids after Sunday school and a knock came on the door and it was Brother Romney. I opened the door and in come Brother Romney. And he said “ Well, I haven‟ t time to visit too much” but he said “ I wanted to talk to you folks and let you know that we want you to come and see us” and he said “ We have a job for you,” and he says “ We are making a new ward out of this and releasing all of the people in the ward and making it new.” He said “ We‟ re putting Charles Hamold as Bishop and we want you as Sunday school superintendent.” I said “ My goodness, President Romney, I‟ ve only been here a month or so and there‟ s hardly anyone knows me that anyone that hasn‟ t been in the shop.” “ Well,” he says “ We want you at Sunday school anyway.” I said “ Ok, I‟ ve never turned a job down in the church in my life so I‟ ll take it.”
“ Well,” he said “ I want see Mrs. England before I go.” So we took him into see Mrs. England and she just had the baby and had it laying there at the side of her, and he met her, and we went there in the afternoon then to church and I was put into Sunday school superintendent. And I was Sunday school superintendent until, for this first ward, and I think it was in 1938 they divided the ward. I was in the 2nd ward then when they divided it. So John Stoker was going to be bishop of the new ward. So he got a hold of me and wanted me to be superintendent again of the Sunday school in the 2nd ward. I said, “ Bill Roberts has been my first officer in the Sunday school for ever since I‟ ve been here.” And he says “ Well, here‟ s a list that they gave me but he‟ s not on here.” I said “ Well then call the bishop and see if we can‟ t get him on there.” So he called Brother Stoker and Stoker said “ Yes.” He said “ If he wants him to come in there we‟ ll release him from what we have in mind and he can have him.” So we took him and Elden Ladel as 2nd councelor. This is in the new 2nd ward, see. We were in that until the fall of 1941. Then we decided that I should go back to school and we‟ d buy a place here in Rexburg because we wanted our headquarters here in Rexburg. So we found Dale Taylor‟ s home. He had just built a new home on College Avenue and he had this other for sale, and so we bought his home and your own father helped Mrs. England remodel the basement of our building there and those walls on that thing was a foot thick with cement all down to the basement and that had not just chicken wire, it was the same type only it was bigger. It was terrible.
HF: Where was that located? CE: On College Avenue. Just, where you live, it‟ s right through the alley and just up a little ways. Yeah. Well he had a time I‟ ll tell you. He had to chisel those all out. We had to chisel an archway into her room and an archway the waiting room we were going to have and take out all that cement in there. And then he chiseled out two windows in the front, the same thing. And then they had to lay a cement floor too on part of that that hadn‟ t been laid in there. And put a stairway outside. And they did that and that‟ s all under the front porch, see, that part of it. And when I got home, anyway, in July, I had been ill and I couldn‟ t, I couldn‟ t go right to work, but I was ready to set up. They had my place all fixed up but there was three rooms there in the back with tables in them waiting for me to go to work but I couldn‟ t‟ do it and I come home in July and it was after Thanksgiving that I was able to start giving treatments.
HF: And now this would have been in ‟ 41, ‟ 42?
CE: This was in ‟ 45.
HF: In ‟ 45.
CE: Yes, we left Sugar City in the spring. Really, it was ‟ 42. We sold out there and moved over here and Mrs. England and Darrell and your father made over that basement and the whole thing in there and made it so that it was just what we wanted. He was a good workman.
HF: So you had— well thank you. So you had your facilities there?
ME: We rented to be upstairs and lived down in the basement and had our workrooms down in the basement.
HF: Your workrooms were both down there?
CE: Yes. And we lived in the upstairs, a nice place there.
ME: No, we lived downstairs while you were gone and rented the top.
CE: Yes. While I was away they rented the top and she lived in my part of the basement when I was going to work in and then she had her beauty shop in the basement on the side.
HF: Where did you go to school?
CE: It‟ s a National Naturopathic college in Chicago.
HF: And was that a two- three year course?
CE: Well, they gave me credit for my chiropractic training that I had previous so it was just a little over two years that I had to add to that because there are the adjustments in those things and the anatomy of the body is alike. So there was a lot that I didn‟ t have to even review.
HF: But you received a certificate of graduation as a Naturopathic?
CE: Naturopathic physician.
ME: I got one, too, but I would rather curl hair than work with him. [ Laughs]
HF: You mean you got the degree?
ME: Yes, sir. I studied with him.
HF: Well, in other words, did you go back there with him?
ME: We worked together, studied together. We graduated together.
HF: In Chicago?
ME: Then when I got home I went to work with my beauty work and I liked it the best. It was better for me.
CE: She completed completely all in the body maneuvers and the adjustments, and the body massage work, the anatomy of the body. She completed all of those.
HF: Course here again you have a certain degree of overlap in it because a beautician has to know a lot about the body.
ME Oh, yes, you bet.
HF: Now as a Naturopathic physician did you have any other persons in the Rexburg area who were your competition at that time?
CE: Yes.
HF: In ‟ 45?
CE: Charles Green and Doctor Sumner both were chiropractors.
ME: Our son Darrel worked with his father.
HF: At that time?
CE: No. HF: No, not until a little later.
CE: After he comes home from service, yeah.
HF: So you were your soul practitioner?
CE: In naturopathy, yes.
HF: In naturopathy. And that would be from ‟ 45 until what date?
CE: Well, I had practiced up until‟ 56 I got sick again. This heart condition came back on me. And we took a vacation. We went to Alaska. We were up there two months to get away and get right away from everything and we did that and then came back and started right in again and I did fine for a long time but it finally got to me again. In ‟ 65 this started working on me again so that if I give treatment too much in one day while I was down for several days, so I was advised that I had to quit. So by ‟ 72, when I had this eye operated on, then that was finished. I decided that I had better quit right then, so I retired in ‟ 72. And Darrell carried on the work that he had been working with me since what, ‟ 48. He had been working all this time since ‟ 48 with me and he graduated from the Naturopathic college in Portland. And then he came here and started to work with me and worked right along with me until he sold out and left here and I left it to him, there you see, for a little over two years, three years. And they decided to go to Arizona. They had two sons there and they wanted to go there so they just sold out everything home and all and went there.
HF: Well now, Doctor, during those years this means of livelihood did provide you with, I suppose, a pretty good economic income, did it not?
CE: Yes, very good.
HF: And then, of course, your wife, Mrs. England, was still operating her beautician.
CE: That‟ s right. She quit about the same time I did.
ME: We moved in this house. They put carpets on all the floors so I couldn‟ t have a room to work in. So they fixed me so I couldn‟ t curl hair no more.
HF: In this house here?
ME: Yes. That‟ s been what, twelve years ago?
CE: Yeah, we moved in here in the fall of ‟ 68.
HF: Did you have a number of girls working for you when you lived in a basement over there? ME: Yes, I‟ ve had a size of three girls working for me.
HF: Was Darlene operating then?
ME: I think she started in after I did.
CE: No, she was, she was working.
ME: She wasn‟ t working when I started, Darlene wasn‟ t.
CE: No, she was working after Mrs. England was at it for quite a while when she came in.
ME: She never worked for me.
HF: Were you primarily the only ones?
ME: The first.
HF: You were?
ME: Mrs. Sanders and I were the first ones in here that I know of. I know I had the first permanent wave machine.
CE: But Darlene must have started in maybe ‟ 60, along in there with her beautician. And she‟ s been at it ever since. She‟ s very good.
[ End Tape 1] [ Tape 2]
HF: Part two of tape one continuing with the interview with Charles England and his wife Mar inda England. That‟ s kind of a hard one for me to remember.
ME: Well, I don‟ t go by that. They call me Alberta.
HF: Alberta?
ME: That‟ s my first name.
HF: I see. Now, naturopathy, I supposed, involved quite a lot of physical effort on your part on handling procedure.
CE: Yes, a lot. That‟ s one reason I had to quit because of the physical stress that was on the strain, especially with heavy people. Sometimes there‟ d be, people would come in there that was just too much for me to handle. HF: What was the theory of your procedure, Doctor, the theory in large measure that you followed in treating people?
CE: Well, the main thing, really, is the adjusting of the body, you see that it‟ s all in place where it belongs. That‟ s from the spine and otherwise, too.
HF: Did you do this by feel or other?
CE: I feel. I never, we never were dependent upon an x- ray, which a lot of them do but we didn‟ t and don‟ t. Even the last thing when we practiced. Why, we could go down a person‟ s spine and we could tell them if they had any invertebrates out, even the celiac in the lower back. We could tell if those were out.
HF: By feel?
CE: By feel, yes. I‟ ve always said that if they can‟ t tell that, they shouldn‟ t be practicing.
HF: Now, did you also use heat as a treatment?
CE: Yes, we used packs of all kinds at different cases, you know. You take sprains of different kinds, that‟ s cold packs is the thing to use on sprains. Not hot packs.
HF: But you use the cold and the hot where you needed it.
CE: Yes, that‟ s right.
HF: Where it was needed.
CE: Yes.
HF: Did you use any electric therapy?
CE: Yes. We used the sine waves, the diathermy, and the vibrating machines because they were all very good. I had one table that was a vibrating table that I could lay a person on that and then put my hand on them and let the table do the work. And I could follow the spine down, see, and get the adjustments that were wrong.
HF: Could you be handling three people pretty much all at the same time?
CE: Well, that‟ s depending on what the conditions were, yes. Some we could put under heat and be able then to work on another one while this one was heating. Then go take care of that one while this other one was heating and so on, see.
HF: A typical back out of order or whatever, would that take maybe two or three treatments or sometimes would it take a lot more than that or maybe not so many?
CE: Well, we always tried our best to fix the person up the first treatment so they weren‟ t having to come back and come back like a lot of them really do. They go in there with a vertebrate out that‟ s giving them trouble, and they should have other adjustments to counteract that condition, see. And instead of doing that, they‟ d make this one adjustment and then they say “ Now you come back next Wednesday at 5: 00,” or whatever, and they do that right alone to keep them coming. Now, we didn‟ t do that and we had a tremendous business. Both Darrell and I had a tremendous following. I‟ ve given as high as 42 treatments one day.
HF: Let‟ s talk a little about the economics. For example, what in 1925, when you went to Sugar City, what kind of a charge would you make for a treatment?
CE: $ 2.00.
HF: Now, in 1945 when you relocated with your degree and so forth in Rexburg, what was the charge?
CE: We started out at $ 3, but we were only just, actually the third year we had to raise to $ 5.
HF: So by 1948 you were charging about $ 5 per treatment?
CE: Yes, that‟ s right.
HF: Now you had added more equipment and facilities though hadn‟ t you?
CE: Oh, yes.
HF: Economically, what would you estimate the cost of equipping your facility there in Rexburg, $ 3,000, $ 10,000? How much?
CE: No. It was just under $ 5,000 I had in equipment.
HF: Well, it isn‟ t too costly then is it, to go into that?
CE: No. I sold my one machine after the flood and it wasn‟ t hurt at all. But I sold that to the hospital up here, my diathermy machine. So you know I had some good equipment.
HF: Did the MD‟ s give you much in the way of a public complaint, criticism?
CE: We had no trouble at all with our local doctors. In fact, we treated quite a number of their people. Doctor Harlor Rigby‟ s people, we treated practically all of them. HF: He would very, feel very good about referring?
CE: Well, he didn‟ t treat us very good. He was always nice and kind to me but he didn‟ t recommend any patients to come to me but his wife did. His wife, they had a hospital right across the street from us there and she would say now we don‟ t, we just can‟ t give you the service that you need in this particular condition that you are in. You go over to Doctor England and see what he will do.
HF: That‟ s interesting, isn‟ t it?
CE: Doctor Sutherland was very good with us.
HF: Was he?
CE: I treated Doctor Sutherland‟ s family.
HF: M. F. Rigby was…
CE : His twins. M. F. Rigby. I gave Mrs. Rigby one treatment.
HF: And that was it?
CE: That‟ s all. That was it. That was all I wanted.
HF: You infer that the MD‟ s in the Rexburg area were pretty fine, now, were there others who were quite vocal in their expressions against…?
CE: Well they were vocal against anything that‟ s not medical, either medicine or surgery.
HF: Now, when you started out in 1925 there in Sugar City, did you have to obtain from the health and welfare or health services of Idaho some type of certificate?
CE: No, I didn‟ t. I asked for it and they said “ There‟ s no way right now to give you a license for it.” But they did give me a permit to practice within the teaching or that that I had learned from the college. It all had to not go over anything that I had learned in that college, like the adjustments and those things. I wasn‟ t to recommend medicines of any kind, for instance.
HF: Herbs?
CE: Herbs I could recommend.
HF: You could?
CE: Yes.
HF: Did you ever use those?
CE: Oh, yes.
ME: Vitamins.
HF: Herbs and vitamins and minerals.
CE: Vitamins and minerals and herbs and teas.
HF: Now, at a later time, were you required to have a license or permit or some type of a certificate from the state?
CE: Yes, there was and I was president of the Idaho Association for 14 years and during that time we got a permit from the attorney general through the right channels to give our members of the association, doctors that would pass our examinations, we could give them a permit to work in the state of Idaho and then we were held responsible for the actions of those doctors. If they did something that was wrong in practice we were held responsible for it. And we had to let out several of our men because they couldn‟ t behave themselves.
HF: Well, Mr. England, we have just off the record visited about your experience in politics. What were you, politically speaking?
CE: Republican.
HF: You were a Republican. Did you get that from your growing up background, your father?
CE: Yes, I‟ ll tell you. You know, the church was all democrats to begin with. Practically to the man, it was all democrats. And they called people in like my father‟ s family and other families in. They called them into Salt Lake and give them the line up on the Republican Party. And they said “ Now we‟ d like you to take these home and study them. If you can accept this republican platform, we would like you to be Republicans because we, it isn‟ t good for all of the LDS people to be one of either or the other.” And they divided that all over through the church and my father‟ s family…
HF: Where did you get this information?
CE: Right from my own father.
HF: When was this done?
CE: Well, it was done when he was just a young man in Plain City. HF: In Plain City. That‟ s just out of…?
CE: Just out of Ogden.
HF: Of Ogden.
ME: Maybe 80 years ago.
HF: I‟ ve heard this, but I‟ ve never had it really told to me specifically, but from him, you are saying to me that your own father was taken and…
CE: Yes, my own father and his brothers.
HF: Go ahead then.
CE: They were, they were taken in and given the platform of the Republican Party and asked to take them home to study them and then come back and let them know if they could accept that if they would they would like them to be republicans and teach republicanism to their families. They would like the church part of it to come up in Republicans as well as Democrats. They wanted the two parties and that‟ s exactly where we got that. Our whole family is all republicans.
HF: Very interesting. Now, when you got to Sugar City, did you take an active part?
CE: In Sugar City I went right to work in a Republican party and it wasn‟ t very long until they organized over there again and put me in chairman of that group over there, in a committeeman rather in Sugar City. And then from that I was taken in with Jack Tout in the…
HF: In Rexburg.
CE: In Rexburg in the county chairmanship. And then the next four years he didn‟ t want it anymore so they put me in as chairman and I held that for four years.
HF: It seems to me as though from reading the account of A. J. Hanson, Andrew J. Hanson who is the probate judge— do you remember him?
CE: Well, I don‟ t know that I do.
ME: Was he a patriarch?
HF: Yes.
ME: Well that was Aaron‟ s dad.
CE: Oh, oh yes, oh yes, very well.
ME: Aaron is our, my brother- in- law. His son.
HF: That‟ s right.
CE: Yes.
HF: Okay now he was a probate judge from 1922-‟ 32 and I think he first lived at Sugar City. But it seems to me like he ran several times as a republican. He had come out Tropic Utah but the Harris‟ s over there in Sugar City were very strong Democrats.
CE: Oh, very. Holeman‟ s, Bulrums. I tell you when you met one of them, any one of them, during time of politics you better duck. They were just that strong. [ Laughs]
HF: Okay, so you knew how they felt and their expressions, didn‟ t you, in the, in the ‟ 20‟ s. And now, you moved here later in the „ 40‟ s and you became involved with Jack Tout as a republican who was strong in the area of the democrats at that time? Do you recall?
CE: Well, Gibb Larson and John Porter was the ones that really run the democratic party in Madison County.
HF: Well now, their father was a strong democrat.
CE: Very strong, yes.
HF: Arthur Porter Jr.
CE: That‟ s right.
ME: See your pictures and there‟ s your names.
CE: Yeah. Now as far as they were concerned, Bro. Covington, I should remember his name so well because we‟ re such friends. He never meets me he doesn‟ t come around and put his arms around me and he was democrat chairman and I was republican chairman.
HF: Was that Ed Covington?
CE: Ed. We walked up the street one day with out arms around each other and Gibb Larson saw us and he went over and saw John and they dismissed Ed from the head democratic party. Hey said he‟ s cooperating with the republicans. [ Laughs] Just think of that.
ME: There‟ s people‟ s ticket they called it.
CE: Yeah. They run me for mayor at one time here you know. And with the Irving Wood Mansen and Willis Nelson and Woody Miller and they run me for mayor, Councilman Arby Wood Mancy and Councilman Willis Nelson and Councilman Woodruff Woody Miller.
ME: There‟ s a picture of them with their names on the other side.
CE: Brother Parkinson had the implement company here.
HF: Joe Parkinson.
CE: Joe Parkinson ran against us with others and we really didn‟ t want it but the group in town just forced it on us. Now we didn‟ t work at all but we come within a few of beating them. [ Laughs] We just lacked a few but we were awfully glad we didn‟ t because I couldn‟ t do it. I was in my business heavy and I just simply couldn‟ t spend the time to do the work that should be done by a Mayor so I was glad to run but I was glad that I didn‟ t win. [ Laughs]
HF: Well, now what years were you the chairman of the Republican Party for the entire county? Who did you succeed? Do you remember who you came after?
CE: The optician, Jenson, came in after me and the one just before me was, oh I‟ ve just forgotten the one that was before me and Jack. I think it was one of the Porters.
HF: But at any rate, during those years, that is in the „ 20‟ s and „ 30‟ s, the county was predominately democratic, was it not? Even in the „ 40‟ s?
CE: Yes, up to, up to that time because after that when we really got control of the county. See, I didn‟ t get back here until ‟ 45. And it was after that that Jack and I was in the politics heavy. And then I took over Jack‟ s job. So it must have been close to the ‟ 50s.
[ A skip in the tape]
HF: Thomas Englad, you of course worked in another part of the house as a beautician while your husband was a naturopathic physician and so on. How many years did you continue to serve?
ME: 40 years.
HF: The span then was 40 years of service as a beautician? That‟ s fantastic.
ME: See, I‟ m 83 now. I‟ ll be 84 in May.
HF: Well, now, after having retired from your beauty work, you‟ re home now and you‟ re busying yourself.
ME: Lots of handwork.
HF: Lot of handwork. Tell me about your handwork. What do you enjoy doing?
ME: Well, there are some shelves full of dolls.
CE: If you could see them, Brother, you‟ d be surprised.
ME: Monkeys out of old men‟ s socks with the red heels. I made those for all the little kids. I made seven of them for Christmas this year. Aprons and shawls, I‟ ve crocheted shawls, afghans.
HF: Do you knit?
ME: No, I don‟ t do knit but I can crochet and I don‟ t even know how to read the patterns. I just do them. I like at a piece and I make it.
HF: Now, I guess there are various types of crochet work.
ME: Yes, oh yes. But I make some shawls that„ s a stitch that‟ s hard for people to learn but I can sew them in a few minutes and I learned to do that 60 years ago.
HF: What do you do? Sit down and turn the TV on or the radio?
ME: Yes, I can watch television and crochet. And I‟ ve got the cutest dolls. I‟ ve made 72 dolls this last year and my granddaughter give me a package as we come out of their house the other day with ten more doll heads to make.
CE: Ten more.
HF: Oh, boy.
CE: All kinds of colors. [ Laughs]
ME: I‟ ve got all kinds of dolls. I‟ ve been making dolls for years. I‟ ve got some left on those shelves that are 30 years old.
HF: Well both of you enjoy reasonably good health considering your age.
CE: Yes, sure we do.
ME: Yeah.
HF: Well that‟ s wonderful. That is wonderful and I want to compliment you both in your mental alertness.
CE: Church wise, Brother, I haven‟ t been able to do a thing for the last well, almost since we moved over here in this ward. This heart condition is just so severe that I can go down there and have to come right home.
HF: Let‟ s see, you would be in the 5th ward?
CE: Yes, I‟ m in the 5th ward.
ME: I fell and hurt my head at four years ago.
CE: She had a concussion.
ME: And since that I‟ m awful dizzy. Other than that, I won‟ t go up to the doctor ( you‟ re not putting this down), I won‟ t go up to the hospital and let them try to monkey with my head. Too many people die from those operations. That‟ s your mechanism of your whole body. That‟ s the one you want to leave alone.
HF: Now what I‟ d like to do as we close is have you tell me about your family, Sister England. You tell me about your boys and girls, where they live and their names and their boys and girls.
ME: Melvin and Darla, they live in Salt Lake. They have five sons and they‟ re all married and they‟ ve all been on missions, all but two.
CE: No, every one of them has been on a mission.
ME: Well one that‟ s divorced his wife, he didn‟ t go on a mission, the oldest one.
CE: There‟ s one that was in the bishopric.
ME: Three of them went on a mission.
HF: Now your son number two?
ME: That‟ s Jim.
CE: Our daughter comes before Jim, Florence Benson. She‟ s Max Benson‟ s wife and he‟ s been head bookkeeper up here at the college, you know, for a good many years. He just retired, just now.
CE: And then comes Jim.
ME: And he‟ s the war veteran. He‟ s disabled.
CE: Part of his family isn‟ t doing anything in the church. They‟ re all members and not out of the way in habits but he has one, a Mrs. Clark up at Newdale. She is one of the finest little women in the world. She‟ s been president of the Relief Society. She had a piece in the paper here just a while back on her candy recipes. She use to teach here in the college in the cooking. She‟ d go up there and demonstrate for them in cooking.
ME: She goes all over to Relief Societies and demonstrates.
HF: Her candy- making.
ME: Then who comes next?
CE: Maelynn is next. He‟ s the one that the electrician there.
ME: And then Sandy.
CE: Then Darrel, and then Betty, and then Sandy.
HF: Let‟ s see. Betty Fisher? Who did she marry?
CE: She married Don Fisher from out here in Hibbard.
CE: They‟ re retired now.
ME: Sandy married a guy from… I don‟ t‟ know where he‟ s from but he‟ s an Italian guy.
CE: Washington D. C. Just out of Washington. D. C.
ME: His dad worked in Washington.
CE: Oh, yes. Now they live in Boise.
HF: And how many grandchildren do you have?
CE: Grandchildren is 35. Great grandchildren are 74 with the new one we just had yesterday.
ME: Christmas morning.
CE: And three great- great grandchildren. And that‟ s it, 119 all together.
HF: Isn‟ t that a remarkable posterity?
CE: Yes. HF: That is remarkable.
ME: As far as we know they‟ re in the church.
CE: And as far as we know they‟ re all healthy and strong mentally and physically.
ME: We got one that‟ s got poor eyes. We got one that don‟ t hear.
CE: Yes, we have one boy that doesn‟ t hear. He‟ s getting a little of it by the way so he may.
ME: But oh boy, he‟ s smart. He will go places.
CE: Oh, boy, he‟ s smart.
ME: And cute. [ Laughs]
HF: Well that‟ s wonderful and to know that they are pretty much in the church and they‟ re active and they‟ re doing the things that will make you people proud and this is tremendous.
ME: And I tried to fix Christmas for the biggest part of them. The ones I got this year won‟ t get it next year but the ones that didn‟ t get will, see. I have made, crocheted sweaters for all of the daughters and granddaughters and back here a few years and I‟ ve give all the older ones shawls, made most of them quilts when they got married.
HF: Mrs. England, have you enjoyed living in Rexburg?
ME: Yes, absolutely. We never go out in the car but we‟ re thankful we‟ re living in Rexburg.
CE: And we‟ re glad to get back.
ME: And we hear things that are going on in the bigger cities and different cities and of course there‟ s a little wickedness everywhere but one of my biggest possessions is my membership in this church.
HF: How about you? Have you found that Rexburg has been fair with you as a businessman down through the years?
CE: Oh, very good.
ME: Absolutely.
CE: Very good. We‟ ve had a wonderful following in our practice, both of us. And we spend a lot of our money helping children as they come along that needed help and get them through school. But other than that we‟ ve done alright. We‟ re so we can eat and sleep and keep warm and what else can we expect at our age? I haven‟ t been able to do much of anything in the church recently because I just couldn‟ t do it because of my health.
ME: Our children are awful good to us. If you‟ d see what they brought in for us for Christmas you‟ d wonder. One of them bought at least $ 30 worth of beef steaks, the best you could buy.
CE: Potatoes, apples, canned goods.
ME: All kinds of canned goods.
CE: Things that we could use, you know. That‟ s the things to bring us for Christmas.
ME: Oh food, food food. We‟ ve got stuff and dainties and things we wouldn‟ t go buy, you know. We just sit here every night and my goodness sakes.
CE: Well, there‟ s hardly a day that we don‟ t look at each other and say how blessed are we, so blessed that we just simply can‟ t imagine that people could be blessed day by day and year by year as we have been. And the love and the unity in our home that we have and prayer, we have that daily, night and day.
HF: Well I want thank you, each of you for sharing with me these things that you have done this afternoon.